98 Beetle hard starting cold (and yes i have checked the glow plugs)

My 98 beetle is getting harder to start the colder it gets. I have checked the glow plugs they are all good and they are all getting power. My timing is just a little on the advanced side, and i have adajusted my glowplug time using vag-com, so that they are running longer

When i go to start cold (20*) the glowplugs run for 8 seconds as soon as i turn it over i get one or two cylinders firing but its just not enough for it to take off. Then after cranking it like this for a few seconds it will eventually kick out the starter drive and i have to start over. It hasn't failed to start yet for me but im starting to get worried because it isn't even cold yet.

Am i missing something?

Does anyone have any ideas???? I think i have a pretty good idea on what is going on........ But I have no idea where to go next.... If this was a Powerstroke, I would have many more ideas, but i know my timing is where its suposed to be. I know my glow plugs are all working, WHATS MISSING?????????????

this info from my thread might help

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=370931

Curse of the '98 Beetle.

Let me ask this question..... How fast should the engine turn over ??? it does seem to turn over slow but im not too fimilar with how they should sound. I would compair it to my 2000 jetta but i bought it wrecked and im still working on putting it back together


Even on a day like today(50*F) It stumbles a bunch of times before it actually starts

My 2002 NB is doing the same thing. It will take up to three seconds or more to fire over if the temp is below mid-50s(F) I would guess. I did as you and increased the pre-glow time, but it didn't help. I thought perhaps it was because it was parked at an angle in the driveway so last night I parked it on the grass, level. This morning it was 42 out, and when I started it, it fired right over but in my excitement I may have let go of the key an instant too soon, not sure, and it died, of course the next start it fired right up.

A person on another thread wondered if the fuel could be leaking down in the IP, making it take longer to get fuel to the motor. I don't know if parking at an angle could exacerbate this, I would guess not if the whole thing was pressurized, but I am still looking myself. Will see what my timing is set at tonight. Definitely wanting to get this fixed, too, it hasn't really gotten below 23 here, so far...I fear, lol.

Does yours start up just fine the rest of the day after this? Mine starts up even when it is the same temp after several hours of sitting.

Note: Just read the thread from a few posts above. Come to think of it my Jetta has some issues when I first got it, and after I went to NAPA and got the highest cca I could get (or maybe just new batt able to supply more amps), it may have gone away. I think the former owner just replaced my battery not long ago, but I will check the cca on it when I get home. What I don't get about a battery problem is why it would start just fine after a full day of sitting in the same temps...the only diff I can see is it is level and not sitting in my driveway tilted back a little, which sounds ridiculous.

Note 2: It's a fail on the parking on level ground idea...it took about 3-4 seconds for it to start after work, 47 degrees, blast. CTS replace tomorrow to see if that helps. Glow plugs all good as of a couple of weeks ago.

I have checked the voltage drop across the battery cables and they are in great shape. Im going to try to throw a starter in it today and see if that makes any differnce

I went into VC last night and did the Timing plug-in. It took a while to get it warmed up enough, etc, but once it got warmed up it said

"Timing within spec but retarded". The temp was at 121 and the timing skipped back and forth from from 30-33, I forgot to get a screencap of the chart so I don't recall exactly where it was hitting the lines, will do that later.

Block 4 says start of injection specified start is .4 BTDC and actual is .4-.7 BTDC, jumping back and forth. IQ is 4.2 mg.

So what I get from lots of reading is if I advance a bit more it may cause better cold starting...but that wouldn't help your situation because you say you are a little advanced...never-ending story, lol.

I will replace the CTS after lunch and then see if it helps in the morning. Will keep you informed, lol.

Dogg, while you are doing the starter I cam trying to do the cts, hope you don't mind if I share what I am seeing, in the hopes it may help your situation, too.

You know, my engine did seem to turn over a bit slowly this morning, slower than my Jetta, hmmm...put that in the back pocket.

In case you go for the CTS, I am posting some pics of the thing, maybe it will help you when looking. While looking for it I discovered a couple of things that may need attention.

1) First pic is of the location of the CTS itself. Found this pic on another site, don't remember wh

2) Accidentally noticed the wires going to the coolant glowplugs were chewed on by a pitbull or something. I can actually see wire from that middle one, is there a part replace to fix those? I am hesitant to touch them, maybe I won't have to this time.

Dogg, this is my last post, I swear, will stop horking your thread.

Everything went back together, no worries...well, one worry...when I was pushing that new retention clip up into the slots and realized the one on the far side had not gone into the slot and was very bent out of shape it was a tense moment, but then it sprang back when I eased it back off the housing, whew. After that I was able to feel it go into the slot behind, and it was still a little tense shoving it up until it popped into the slots, but got it.

When I test drove it, I told myself not to expect any improvement, but man I would swear it was noticeably peppier, more like what Christine ran like when I first got her, and though I tried to downplay what I was thinking, I am sure it scooted along better! I think I read somewhere it was possible, so I am saying it did it.

Whether this bodes well for the starting in the morning, I can't say yet, but I have high hopes.

Dogg, did your starter go in, and did it help?

Back to you, I'll quit hogging the thread.

Oh, this is how much coolant I lost (on stepladder) while being up on two ramps. I just went to Lowe's and got a big rectangular plastic bin, six buck, and positioned it under (after I got the panzer off) and it caught all but a bout a half cup I believe. When I went to re-fill it via reservoir, it took a bit more than what I poured into the carton, and then it only had a little air that I let out with the lid, and it seems fine now.

So my car would take a long time to crank over anytime the temp dropped below about 75. The glow plugs don't even kick in at that temp so that wasn't the issue. It got to the point that it would crank so long that my battery would die. But once I did get it started and the car warmed up the subsequent starts would be fine. Long story short, it was my starter. I threw another one in and it turns right over now every time.

Bob702 said:

So my car would take a long time to crank over anytime the temp dropped below about 75. The glow plugs don't even kick in at that temp so that wasn't the issue. It got to the point that it would crank so long that my battery would die. But once I did get it started and the car warmed up the subsequent starts would be fine. Long story short, it was my starter. I threw another one in and it turns right over now every time.

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Your 99.5 also has a flaw in the ECU hot start mapping which will lead to a hot start condition. there's a huge thread on this.. All the 98 Beetles and 99.5 Golf/Jettas suffer from it.

Only way to fix it is to get your ECU tuned. Another way is to unplug the CTS itself and she'll fire right up every single time regardless of temp.

LNX, thanks, you mentioned 98s, guess I will go research if 2002 versions had anything similar. I wonder if this could be Dogg's basic problem.

So when I started up mine this morning, it was 44, pretty much the same as earlier this week when it was taking longer to crank. This time it fired right over, but died after I let off the key. Then it started again after a couple of cranks. So, I was hoping for a complete cure with the CTS replace, but maybe not. I am now going to check the timing again and see if it is still the same, because it certainly seems to run more strongly today, too.

If the timing is still retarded, I will advance it a bit, since it was remarked that doing this will help cure the cold start issue, too.

Powerstrokedogg, still out there?

I hope I didn't run Powerstrokedogg off of his own thread...

Anyway, here is a clip of how my NB reacted this morning after the new CTS and new oil, and the battery showed a full charge before the temp dropped last night.

I will try to see if advancing the timing a little will help as a next move.

BTW, the little wheezing sound the starter makes at time, I was told it had to do with the starter being dirty and maybe needing cleaning?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kelDVnjRBZw&feature=youtu.be

I have a 1999.5 2000 Beetle. I know the ECM map on the 1998 and 1999s are screwed up. There has been a lot of older posts regarding this problem. The ECMs have to be removed for remapping do to the fact that they are eprom versus eeprom. I know that remapping seems to cure this problem. I know KERMA TDI can remap them, but only after removal of the ECM on 1999 and lower models. Any year higher than 1999 can be remapped through the diagnostic port with a flash programmer. There have been hundreds of posts regarding the 1998 Beetles and strating problems. Also a thousand attempts at trying to cure the problem. A million arguments attributed to this problem. I am a Beetle nut, and from looking at prior posts regarding this problem remapping seems to be the most successful solution to the problem. My 2 cents of crap on this subject.

Thanks, it seems these problems are always re-discovered in spite of attempts to search endlessly for clues. I have to admit I am a new NB owner so unfamiliar with all the endearments about it, lol.

I will look further, but it sounds a bit like you are saying to just get the ecm remapped before searching for any other problems? I am assuming for the 2002 this would not be a VC, but an official ecm programmer from someone who does firmware changes, etc. I will continue to search, thanks.

Rickstah said:

Thanks, it seems these problems are always re-discovered in spite of attempts to search endlessly for clues. I have to admit I am a new NB owner so unfamiliar with all the endearments about it, lol.

I will look further, but it sounds a bit like you are saying to just get the ecm remapped before searching for any other problems? I am assuming for the 2002 this would not be a VC, but an official ecm programmer from someone who does firmware changes, etc. I will continue to search, thanks.

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I know the KERMA remaps have been successful at resolving starting problems with the 1998 and 1999 Beetles with the 1.9 TDI. Another solution is disconnecting CTS and starting it that way. Some members have placed switches on them. It also seems that other members have hypthosized that purhaps the problem is caused by leaking injectors, and faulty CTS sensors, pump timing, fuel delivery, glow plugs. Chasing these problems can be costly and repetative. I know those that have had their ECMs remapped have reported a resolve to the problem including hard hot starts which is the summer time problem with the 1999 and lower models. The 1999.5 and up don't seem to have the hard starting issues that the 1999s and lower year models have. Best of luck.

Thx! I was looking through records on my NB and back in 2007 it had the CTS replaced because it was backfiring. When the tech read the codes, the sensor was reporting 215 degrees celsius, lol. "Too high" the tech said .

I don't see any record of an ecm reflash, will continue to search to see if 2002 NBs had this.

My 98 Jetta fired right over this morning, no sign of slow starting. The batt in the NB was two years old last april.

Rickstah said:

Thx! I was looking through records on my NB and back in 2007 it had the CTS replaced because it was backfiring. When the tech read the codes, the sensor was reporting 215 degrees celsius, lol. "Too high" the tech said .

I don't see any record of an ecm reflash, will continue to search to see if 2002 NBs had this.

My 98 Jetta fired right over this morning, no sign of slow starting. The batt in the NB was two years old last april.

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2002 are not known for ecm fuel map problems, just 1999s and lower. In any regards I thought this problem was with a 1998 Beetle with a 1.9 ALH.

Good luck, Rickstah. Sorry I was referring to powerstrokedogg, his problem is pretty well known with the 1998 Beetle. I'd look at that glow plug harness, it does look ratted up. Is it throwing a CEL? I'd fix that.

Yeah, I was having a similar problem to his so I was just detailing what I was doing to try to fix it. He hasn't been back lately after saying he was going to put in a new starter, may have gotten tired of my verbosity, lol.

I'm seeing some refs to the ecm flash on those years, btw. Hope that will be a path forward for him if it wasn't a starter weakness.

vwdieseling said:

2002 are not known for ecm fuel map problems, just 1999s and lower. In any regards I thought this problem was with a 1998 Beetle with a 1.9 ALH.

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99.5 and earlier models have the hot start issues. 00' and up are fine. A '99 is actually a MK3 model car.

Im still here, just been busy getting my jetta project on the road. I changed the starter out yesterday. It does crank noticably faster and it doesent kick the starter drive out while cranking but it still isn't where it should be. I just checked the timing against my jetta wich starts great, and they are the exact same.

The "hot start issue" has haunted me since i bought the vehicle. The only problem is that mine does it on cold starts also. If you unplugged the CTS it would take right off. I change the software coding a couple weeks ago. I told the ECM I have a automatic transmission instead of a manual. Now it barely cranks over one revolution before it starts (***???? What kind of difference would that make to timing/fueling????????????) Almost starts as good as my old 81 1.6L used to.

But on cold starts it still stumbles a bunch of times before it actually starts. It feels like its hitting on only one or two cylinders.....

what would cause a intermitten glowplug code?? Having this come up on my jetta every couple days

Your hot and cold starting issues are separate.. The hot start issue is with the hot start maps in the ECU, only a tune will fix this. Your cold start issues could be glowplugs or timing or a number of other things. Treat them separately.

LNXGUY said:

99.5 and earlier models have the hot start issues. 00' and up are fine. A '99 is actually a MK3 model car.

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I am not sure what protocal that the 99s and below are as far as VCI interface, but I know that reflashing has to be done by removal of the ECM. If these are J 2534 standard, I am not sure. I know that the mk 4 are. I do agree, I did post that. Also stated that reflashing cannot be done on 1999 and earlier models through the diagnostic VCI port. In 2013 Delphi will include in their PC based diagnostic tool VW and Audi this tool allows for reflashing as well most of the scan tool manufacturers are going to PC based systems because it allows for techs more mobility. I just got a tech seminar on this new tool it's great, but expensive. No more bulky MODUS or SNAP ON systems. It covers all domestic and most Asian makes and models

vwdieseling said:

I am not sure what protocal that the 99s and below are as far as VCI interface, but I know that reflashing has to be done by removal of the ECM. If these are J 2534 standard, I am not sure. I know that the mk 4 are. I do agree, I did post that. Also stated that reflashing cannot be done on 1999 and earlier models through the diagnostic VCI port. In 2013 Delphi will include in their PC based diagnostic tool VW and Audi this tool allows for reflashing as well most of the scan tool manufacturers are going to PC based systems because it allows for techs more mobility. I just got a tech seminar on this new tool it's great, but expensive. No more bulky MODUS or SNAP ON systems. It covers all domestic and most Asian makes and models

Click to expand...

Yes, '98 Beetle and 99.5 Golf/Jetta need to be socketed as do the '99 MK3 and B4 cars...

Only way to 'flash' a 99.5 via the OBD port is to upgrade the harness/ECU to 120pin from 80pin.

I used to own a 99.5, I know all about them

LNXGUY said:

Yes, '98 Beetle and 99.5 Golf/Jetta need to be socketed as do the '99 MK3 and B4 cars...

Only way to 'flash' a 99.5 via the OBD port is to upgrade the harness/ECU to 120pin from 80pin.

I used to own a 99.5, I know all about them

Click to expand...

Check this tool out. Click on this link. One of my old instructors, he is the best.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1NrwekOkCR0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I think this is the future of automotive repair as far as scan diagnostics. Still can't beat VCDS. The 98 NB is notorious for hard start problems, as a technician we are trained not to fault an ECU for problems, but in the 98s case I think the ECU fuel map is at fault. I respect your knowledge on this, I have screwed around with the 98s and found that the cheapest solution is reflashing the ECU. I tried to look at all the factors as to why VW didn't recognise the problem from its inception. It seems throwing parts at it is not the solution, and becomes costly to the cutomer and provide no solution.

I'd like to say autorepair is a sideline for me, but I received training in it. I work in manufacturing because the money is better for me. I do autorepair as a second income. I received automotive training through a vocational program, and always tried to keep up with any changes. I have worked on many VWs and Audis on the side this includes my own. To me I enjoy the technical world, I am not an expert by anymeans. I am familiar with the 98s problems.

You cannot OBD flash a MSA15 ECU period. Has to be socketed and new chips installed.

If the socketed chips on a 98 beetle are virtually the same as on a 98 Jetta, I just found a stock set and plugged them in while I sent my own off to be programmed. Dogg, see if you can find someone with a stock ecu sitting around and pop them in while yours are being redone somewhere.