No flywheel timing mark?

aloha Every one! new guy here have a few TDIs in my possession with varying condition but all none runners.

so today I'm working on a 1997 <-(i think) Passat not sure it it is the 1z or Ahu
Either way I had tried to start it by priming the fuel pump etc with no luck, I had fuel to injectors etc and a little bit of white smoke while cranking,
that led me to think the timing belt may of jumped so I went ahead and removed all the necessary bits to check the static timing
and it appears as there is No flywheel mark for timing.

I got the cam with cyl#1 lobes creating a V and my pump pin in, But the cam lock won't fit, and like above No flywheel mark.

What would you do next? any way around the flywheel mark.. how odd is it that there isnt one?

there is, its hidden, get a helper to turn the crank by hand, then you go in with a FLAT HEAD screwdriver and let it scrape over the flywheel where the mark would be, as it rotates you will feel it catch, then turn it back to that area and clean it with some solvent and feel it with the blade of the screwdriver.

So this happend to me, i use a paint pen to mark the area last time i did it, well my stage 3 clutch made a lot of mess over time and the dam paint attracted all the dust and it filled in the grove and was invisible, used this trick and found it really fast.
Let the blade of the screwdriver ride on the surface of the flywheel as it rotates.

VW didn't put a viewing area hole there for nothin

Thanks Mongler98 Quick and accurate response!

so with the fly wheel mark lined up, I cannot get the cam or pump locked, what would be the next step for static timing check?

seems like something was obviously messed up on this one I hope i didn't hurt things by trying to start it before checking the timing was off...
edit: going to snap a few pic's just for reference how far off we are

When all else fails, put a new belt on it and TDC everything. Leave the cam sprocket loos enough it can rotate freely from the cam, once the belt is where it goes, make sure its all TDC, then tighten the sprocket.
its clearly off. I have figured out that with the AHU/ 1Z that you can be off a hair if you dont fine tune your timing belt. i have been able to get it perfect, dont settle for almost there after the belt tightens down. Clearly off by 1 tooth or 3

just make sure the 2nd to last step before turning that key is to rotate it 4 times by hand.
the last and final step should be to DOUBLE CHECK to make sure you took the wrench off the crank bolt.

so, little cloudy on my next move.. just to clarify to not make things worse.

remove belt as normal, but no worries about pump pin and cam lock,
and just by hand turn the cam pulley and pump pulley to line up before reinstalling belt?

sounds too simple wanted to be sure. First time fiddling with the tdi's

With the flywheel at the appropriate mark do the following:

1) slacken tensioner and remove timing belt from the cam and IP sprockets.
2) using cam sprocket for leverage move cam until the timing plate can be inserted.
3) loosen the cam sprocket nut a few turns and gently tap the sprocket loose.
4) using IP sprocket move pump to position where lock pin engages hole in IP bracket.
5) reinstall timing belt. Verify belt fully engaged to crankshaft sprocket. Use removed cam sprocket to fit final section of TB.
6) tension per Bentley manual.

This all assumes you're going to use the existing timing belt.

Steve

Yup, after pulling the belt:

- manually get everything to exactly TDC (both lobes of #1 pointing up, cam jig in place, pump jig in place, flywheel at TDC),
- loosen the cam sprocket bolt slightly (don't use the cam jig as a counter hold when you do that) and then break the cam sprocket loose so it can spin on its own
- follow the timing belt installation procedure

Are those red paint marks on the IP sprocket yours or the last guy that changed the timing belt?!

That has the signs of a classic walking crank sprocket, if the car started to run worse but started our running ok. If it ran and the timing belt had been installed awhile, I'd pull the crank sprocket and have a look. It's not a lot more time once the belt is off.

If it is the crank sprocket moving and you just re-time it, you'll be back in there redoing this again very soon.

thanks every one, Steve that is about what I had pictured, and im going to just reuse this belt comparing to my new one it doesn't look too bad.

Vince No not my marks.. noticed the same thing too wondering if there Was a mark on the belt? .. why mark it there?

and a quick back story, I had bought 1 tdi purple Jetta for $150 on cl(had a bad IP..and guy tried to take it apart from the engine bay instead of removing pump so about 50 pieces came in a cardboard box)

Next! a passat came on cl for FREE so I drive 200 miles round trip dig this thing out of the weeds and drag it about 1/4 of a mile so I could then put it on trailer..the one im working on currently.

and last but not least another tdi jetta black this time.. supposedly has a bad head, so im sure with all the 1z and ahu's sitting in the yard you could see what the brain was thinking

none the less I hope to do some fun stuff and appreciate the help!

Patrick

Edit: Abacus im not familiar with that so i will do some research, i had the car stumble (like almost start) while cranking before I knew the timing was off, but it never ran since I got it, and it looked like it took a hard hit in a ditch which I thought maybe caused the jump in timing? it appears the engine mounts are loose, not sure if broke or not though
will get back at it tomorrow if time allows.

Bamboo said:

Vince No not my marks.. noticed the same thing too wondering if there Was a mark on the belt? .. why mark it there?

Click to expand...

Some folks like to take a short-cut when changing the timing belt by marking the position of the sprockets before removing the old belt and then putting the new belt on "exactly where everything was".

'Round here we call that a "mark-and-pray"... since you are praying that it was done right in the last time, and praying that nothing moves while you install the new belt, tension it, etc.

The subject of sometimes charged discussion... bordering on religious for some folks.

Given how far your cam timing seems to have been out at TDC... I wonder.

It very well must have been the "Mark and Pray" method clearly done improperly, missing bolts/zipties you name it.

but! I do believe I got it back on time, but it still won't start...
it will crank and crank, start smoking but never actually start, Its getting fuel (cracked injectors) + smoking.

Ive noticed it really smells like Bio-D even though I'm bottle feeding her(gravity feed bypassing the filter/stock tank etc) so I wonder if my original idea of the IP being bad might be more accurate, being that the pump probably sat years with bio-D in it.

are there any senors that are related that will cause it not to start? for example the Radiator isn't hooked up and a bunch of other connectors like for the air intake i'm assuming intercooler tubing etc

will snap another few pics of my bottle feed system and engine bay, Maybe you O-G's can spot something!

Do you have 12v on the fuel shut off solenoid? is the 109 relay good and properly seated, try working it back and forth 3 or 4 times if it tests good but you have no 12v on the solenoid when the key in in the on position. If that is all good, do a compression test and report back, i dont think that much of a cam off time will hit valves but you never know. lack of compression with this timing issue would be bad news, if you have fuel going into the IP, 12v on the shutoff, a good 109, air, and compression it WILL fire up. also check the 12pin connection on the IP as well and also that the round wire harness pug to the trans side of the head is properly grounded. these things are the most common i think in finding a no start. well in my experience and also easy to check.

I hear the solenoid click and i get 12v for 5 seconds right after turning the key, should it stay constant as long as the key is on?
also wouldn't that( bad 109/no 12v to solenoid ) equate to no fuel out of the injector lines while cranking?
just trying make sure I understand the system properly.

will check round connector too, Not sure I had the right fitting for compression tester but will check

:edit so i get
#1 480
#2 475
#4 400

couldn't get to 3 because my tester has a 90* and a straight job would be better.. seems pretty good though..
edit: I guess my tester might be off? 450 Max for a new engine after i did a little research.

Mongler98 said:

if you have fuel going into the IP, 12v on the shutoff, a good 109, air, and compression it WILL fire up.

Click to expand...

Tell that to the car while it laughs at you and still doesn't start. You're not even close. There are quite a few things that could cause it not to run.

Bamboo, you probably need to adjust the pump as your timing is probably too retarded or advanced and needs adjustment. Did you center the pump physically in its bracket when you did the timing belt? Most people forget this step.

Under the IP sprocket there are 2 nuts that need to be loosened, but not too loose, just so the pump will rotate. There is also one at the back of the IP, underneath accessed from the non-belt side of the pump, loosen it. Then loosen the one bolt at the top front of the IP and rotate it towards the back of the car, this advances the pump. Now tighten the last bolt and try and start the car. That one bolt is enough to hold the IP for this adjustment.

If that does not work, loosen the bolt and rotate the pump forward and try again, this retards the pump.

This is called the dynamic timing, which is different from the static timing, which is making sure all the physical alignments are correct. You should have a vag-com when you do this to get the timing correct but for now you just want the car to run.

Also, are there any codes popping up? A few other things will cause the car not to run, like the crank position sensor, key switch, bad ECU, IQ out of adjustment, #3 injector wiring, IP wiring, but one step at a time.

Also, I can't zoom in on your photo, can you get a closer shot of the IP wiring around the pump? Then the wiring around the OOD (orb of death, or big round engine connector), but there is no need to remove or unsocket it. I just want to verify a few things.

Abacus, hows Moody's? pick me up some pie next time you stop in? lol

I didn't touch the pump other then the pin. after doing compression test it oddly landed on the marks I made after timing belt (cam pully) and the pump pin went right in, figured I check the flywheel and it looked to be almost out of the sight?? so that's like 1 tooth off im assuming ..so i will fix that in the morning and if not play with the pump like you mention.

and Ill get some more pics tomorrow

for codes I get..
00522 - Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor (G62) 30-00 - Open or Short to Plus
01266 - Glow Plug Relay (J52)
01268 - Quantity Adjuster (N146) 35-00
is the 01268 the IP ?

how do these things sound straight piped?

Patrick

Not to denigrate your projects since I know you haven't owned them too long and I'm sure what I'm seeing is not a consequence of anything you've done, but man that Passat looks very cobbled up under the hood.

Just a couple things, I see wiring in odd places looks very much out of place down by the starter and going over across the front.

Also some past owner has substituted a Mk3 upper radiator hose (for car with AC) in place of the original B4 tdi upper radiator hose.

It may be that you need to go through and sort out a bunch of the wiring deficiency before you can do anything with getting this one running.

These cars are not loud with straight pipe but they can drone quite a bit at road speed if you take that approach. I am a strong advocate for a resonator in the tunnel and then a basic muffler out at the back.

As a side note you ought to post up some overall pics of your cars, that Passat looks like it's a kind of rare violet color that you don't see too often. I think it was called Twilight Violet or Soft Violet maybe. We all like pics around here!

Steve

so I never made it to work on the car today, was able to get a few photos before the sun was down but still a few variables as far as timing goes hopefully tomorrow ill sort that out and continue from there.

Abacus, here are some of those pics, hopefully does the trick. not sure if this is what you had in mind




and some random connectors.. looks mostly like headlights/running and rad fan etc, some one stole the fans/mirrors etc from the p/o


don't know about this one


was reading something about immobilizer ? do north american cars of this year have that feature ?
never had the key, had to bust the ignition just to unlock steering.

any way, don't cringe at the VDub neglect.. The Passat is a beautiful color and I believe the 97 jetta might be the same, sadly both of those were basically abandoned before I got them.
the black one is in the best shape, most interior intact and quite straight
we will see what ends up running!

Wolfsberg!

That's a nice collection of stuff there. It's too bad that cars like this got abandoned to begin with. For you though it's a nice group of parts cars to pick off of as needed.

In the photo of the passat that's missing the radiator support the two connectors on the left are (upper) radiator coolant switch and 2) radiator fan. On the right those are both for lighting. It looks like the coolant switch is still in the radiator so you could plug that one back in, even if the fans are no longer there.

The single plug at the alternator is just for that, and also that alternator is not original to that car, it's the 90 amp unit from the 2.0L gas powered cars.

In your first photo, the one of the electrical connections, there is a triple plug with yellow wire etc. Below that connection there is a 10mm nut that is holding at least two wires on to the bracket. Those wires should be cleaned thoroughly, they're very important ground wires.

Nice collection, I would think that many TDI cars in HI would be a little hard to round up! Also looks like the cat likes them too!

Steve

well I pulled the V/C and put all my tools in place and the timing was good, So i guess if your a tooth off its totally out of the flywheel window? instead of just a little bit off the mark.
no start.

tried to move the pump like Abacus said,
moved it all the way firewall and it seem to sort of cough after 15-20 seconds of solid cranking but no start
tried moving it the other way, and seemed even after 20 sec of cranking it didn't cough, but really no difference..?
how far is the pump supposed to move? mine doesn't seem to move to much, but figured that was normal.

any other ideas? Seems more likely that IP might be toast??

They should have quite a range. Perhaps loosen the injector hard lines and try to get it to move more, just be sure to tighten them.

It looks like someone must have started to part out the Passat, the radiator support, headlights, grille and cooling fans are gone.

Cars imported to the US did not get immobilizer although there's a pesky convenience module on the B4 under the dash that can cause a no start condition when it fails. A lot of people have bypassed it, there should be some threads out there about it.

The Passat has to be Twilight Violet, the other was not available on the B4. I'm not sure what year the Mk3's are except that they're at the very least 97's. I don't know the colors for those years.

It could be that your IP is not good anymore, maybe that's why it was sidelined originally, who knows. Just glad that someone got it who wanted it!

Steve

well I will see if I get more movement out of the pump tomorrow, I kind of doubt it though..

is there ways to measure the pressure the pump is building while cranking?(to tell if its a bad pump)

I will check the convenience module, It does seem to be a electrical issue, but I really don't know
is this what you are talking about ? https://natnkat.wordpress.com/writi...control-module-ccm-for-the-volkswagen-passat/

Are you getting any smoke at the tailpipe? That would be a good indication that fuel is being pumped.... that’s a start.

Loosening the unions at the injectors would also let you see if all 4 injectors are getting fuel. Key on, and a jumper from the battery to the starter solenoid 50.

-Todd

Todd makes an excellent point, jumper the stop solenoid on top of the pump before starting. This bypasses the wiring and if that is the culprit, it should start. Just don't forget to disconnect it.

Is the Starter solenoid and Stop solenoid on top of the pump the same thing?

I do get smoke after cranking alot, Sadly the downpipe is broken at the accordion( or watever you call it ) section right at the firewall, so I get coaled every time, also all 4 injectors squirt out when unions cracked
I hear it Cough and puff a thicker cloud out of the downpipe but it never actually starts.

I will jump the stop solenoid, See if maybe its only getting a little fuel (enough to smoke) but then shuts off, when I tested it would only stay 12v for about 5 seconds, Which if you were turning the key that would be enough to start, never really got an answer as to if the solenoid should stay hot as long as the key is on?

I was using the "hotwire" method of starting using an external button, but will jump the starter it self, does this bypass any faulty wiring inside the dash?
got to run, hopefully will get back at it this evening

Sounds like the pump is pumping. My tests were only to verify that.... seems like you have what you need with the standard key.

I’d verify timing and start over. Test the impedance of the CPS to verify its good. I got stranded at work, when mine went bad.

-Todd

how do we test the CPS?

CPS aka G28... Bentley states it should read between 1.0-1.5K ohms, between pins 1 and 2. Mine tested 100% open.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4125464&postcount=30

If you’ve never seen this car run, I’d get it scanned.

-Todd