Hard Starting when Cold, etc.

Went into the dealer with three problems, came out with two.

2002 TDI GLS Jetta. 1 year old. 24,000 miles.

Radio was dead. Diagnosis: Internal Failure. They just replaced the whole unit. That's OK.

Power Steering fluid has been disappearing mysteriously. No obvious leaks, but it has drunk a half a bottle of fluid in the past six months (twice sucking it below the stick, causing grumbling hydraulic noises until I re-filled). Dealer Mechanic said he could find no leaks, then proceeded to claim "they all need topping up at oil changes." My regular (independent) mechanic that has taken care of me and 5-6 of my cars, over my past 300,000 miles, just laughed when I told him that. He says that it has to be leaking somewhere since sealed hydraulic systems don't disipate fluid, certainly not at this rate. Any thoughts?

Lastly, since I felt my engine was running rougher than it should, I asked them to check and adjust the Injection Timing. They said it was out, and they adusted it. Now it starts very hard when cold, sometimes needing two "trys" of the glow plugs. And it's not even very cold here yet. Plus, even after it has been fully warmed up, the exaust stinks. It used to be that when I backed it into the garage after a long drive home, there was just a hint diesel exhaust aroma. Now, after this "adjustment," the garage reeks of a kind of burnt-oil mixed with coffee grounds smell. Not what I would call a normal diesel exhaust smell. (I'm not a diesel newbie, so this is not a complaint comparing to a gasser, but from my experience with this car and two other diesels before it.) One positive on the "adjustment:" after warmed up, even though it stinks, it does seem to run smoother. I don't know if the timing adjustment and stinky exhaust are related, but it seems like they could be.

Based on what I was able to dig up with a "SEARCH," they may have incorrectly "adjusted" my timing. Any suggestions on what to say and/or ask for when I go back?

Based on a suggestion from someone here in a previous post, I also asked them to "check & adjust the fuel quantity mixture," but they said it is Not Adjustable. Is that true? And if not, why would I want them to adjust it and how?

1. You have a power steering fluid leak. NO QUESTION. The fluid is going somewhere. It doesn't just disappear.

2. They screwed up your injection timing. 100% certainty. They probably made a mistake like not going into "basic settings", or they set it to "within spec" but at the bottom of the allowable range, which we have found is not good enough. It should be set within the upper half of the specified range in the chart in the shop manual for best cold starting BUT YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW THE SHOP MANUAL PROCEDURE TO THE LETTER.

3. Reported injection quantity at idle is only an issue if you are getting the "slow down shudder" or rough idle (too rich) or hard starting and lack of power (too lean). Check measuring group 01 with engine at idle, fully warmed up, all major accessories off. Specification range is either 2.2 to 9.0 mg/stroke, or 3.0 to 9.0 mg/stroke, depending on model. They run best between 3.0 and 5.0 mg/stroke. To adjust it, "login" using 12233 as the access code, go to adaptation 01, change and "test" the adaptation number (default is 32768 - make small changes at first until the effect can be seen), get it to where you want it or as close as possible, "save". It is only possible to change it within a certain range, but if it's out of spec it's better to be closer to spec than further away! (P.S. While fiddling with adaptations, go to adaptation 03 and set it to 33768.)

Feel free to print this out and give it to them, there's nothing secret here other than the "adaptation" access code.

Another thing I did that caused hard cold starts was to change the idle speed. I reduced my idle speed (auto trans) and when it got below 40 degrees it had a hard time starting. I increased the idle and now its fine.

GoFaster,

Thanks, that is just the kind of specific & concise advice I needed about the injection timing (and what I can rely on this group to provide).

I shall take them the print-out and ask them to try again, however, based on the last visit, I'm not sure I'm going to ask them to do anything with the "Reported Injection Timing at Idle," since I don't have the shudder, and idle speed & smoothness seems to be OK.

On the power steering, I'll let it suck itself below the stick again, then take it back for another inspection & search. I just thought I'd bring it up here in case there were some known issues or common problems involving PS leaks. I was pretty sure that it should operate as a loss-less, closed hydraulic sytstem. Why do they say things like, "they all do that," etc. If they don't know, they should just say so, and that they'll try harder again next time - the truth will always earn my respect, BS will always show itself for what it is.

my power steering fluid was completely full when I checked it at 120,000 miles!

timing. Could be couple things - the hard start isn't a good sign.

But if it has gone away you're probaly safe and juts need a bit of tweaking

I've had the same power steering fluid slow leak. A 2000 Jetta with 87,000 and it's used about a bottle in the past year and a half. Never tried to find problem. I just throw fluid at it.

Originally posted by GeWilli:
timing. Could be couple things - the hard start isn't a good sign.

But if it has gone away you're probaly safe and juts need a bit of tweaking

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">GeWilli, are you just trying to sound scary since it's Halloween?

Everything I've seen in this forum regarding Cold Hard Starting points to incorrect setting of the Injection Timing. If you know something more, please elaborate - for the good of the record, since I'm sure there are a lot of forum readers that search the forums for answers and help without ever posting or replying.

Originally posted by YouWantMyUserName:
I've had the same power steering fluid slow leak. A 2000 Jetta with 87,000 and it's used about a bottle in the past year and a half. Never tried to find problem. I just throw fluid at it.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe this should have been my first question about Power Steering leaks: does Power Steering fluid evaporate without a trace. In other words, with a very slow / minor leak, could it be disappearing into the atmosphere before the source can be discovered? Or, if it doesn't evaporate, what kind of tell-tale sign would it leave (color of stain, stickiness, powdery residue, etc.)?

If that stuff evaporates, then it's evaporating in your car and not mine. It ain't evaporating. It's leaking.

JackSoot-

Not to be a wiseguy, but if that shop can't find the power steering fluid leak and makes some lame excuse for the fluid being low, then why would you trust them to perform something as critical as the injection timing adjustment? Can you find another dealership/independant shop to do the next adjustment? Good luck!
-tom

Check all of the hose clamps from the power steering reservoir to the pump and back. When I replaced my engine, I went through 5 bottles of that stuff before I figured it out. Maybe you could even attach some little pieces of TP to the connection points. That would suck up the leaking fluid and tell you where the leak is. My guess if it leaking slowly, it only is leaking when the wheel is turned hard against the ground, like if you were parallel parking. Those spring clamps will work loose if they are not properly seated.

[ October 31, 2002, 13:32: Message edited by: speakerboy ]

Originally posted by GoFaster:
If that stuff evaporates, then it's evaporating in your car and not mine. It ain't evaporating. It's leaking.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't mean "evaporating" out of the hydraulic system or reservoir like magic. I know it is leaking out of the system somewhere - clamps, pump, hoses. I just mean, why would it be so hard to find, unless it "evaporates" without a trace, after it has leaked. Every other kind of leak I know (coolant, oil, transmission fluid) leaves a nice trail to follow. Maybe it's dripping right onto a heat shield or the engine block and getting "fried" away before it can be seen.

And TDITom, you bring up an important issue about finding another dealer. I may be overly pesimistic, but I don't believe that any dealership service department is that knowledgable about TDIs, and because of the low volume they see, they don't need to be or care to be.

In my opinion, it would be a long shot to find a dealer service department that has a really good TDI/Diesel mechanic, who had the kind of depth of knowledge and experience which must be common in Europe from the increased exposure to TDIs and other small diesels. There are probably some of you out there who are lucky enough to have a mechanic at a dealer who is both enthusiastic and knowledgable about TDIs, but I would bet they are quite rare.

If I could, I would much rather have any of the "A-List" contributors to this forum work on my engine - but I don't see that as a real option. The dealership I am using is where I bought the car, which I believe contributes to the kindness they extend to me in the service department, providing loaners, etc., plus until my warranty expires, I'll need to work through the dealer network (rather than an independent).

My power steering fluid has never dropped below "full" in 125,000 miles. You have a leak.

Sounds like the idiots retarded the timing to smooth the engine out, just to shut you up. You need somebody who knows what they're doing to adjust it to the middle of the "band", if not higher. After that, you can set about diagnosing the REAL problem. Excessively advanced timing will cause loud clattering and vibration, but normal timing will not. You should have somebody look at the timing belt, too, and make sure the cam and pump timing are still correct. If the belt has jumped a tooth, you're within an ace of disaster! I doubt that's the case, but any time the engine is "running rough" or "clattering" unusually, this bears examining.

How long was this "running rougher than it should" going on, and what are you comparing it to? These engines do tend to be a little noisier and rougher after they get broken in, but if it happened all of a sudden, recently, there is a problem. I'd just go about checking all the basics...timing, etc. If everything is okay, have an experienced TDI-er listen and give you an opinion. It may just be normal. If everything else is on target, but you lose fuel economy, you may have a bad injector. (Or more than one.) Oil analysis, after a 10K interval, can be instructive.

You have 24K? Have you changed the fuel filter? If not, do so immediately!

-mickey

plus until my warranty expires, I'll need to work through the dealer network (rather than an independent).

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not true. If they tell you that's the case, they're lying.

-mickey

Originally posted by mickey:
My power steering fluid has never dropped below "full" in 125,000 miles. You have a leak.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes I know it's a leak, I was just wondering what tell-tale PS Fluid might leave, if any, to assist in locating the spot.

Sounds like the idiots retarded the timing to smooth the engine out, just to shut you up. You need somebody who knows what they're doing to adjust it to the middle of the "band", if not higher.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, I belive whoever adjusted the timing did so without following proper procedure. I will be having them try another time, with this printout as some initial guidance (and subtle suggestion that they recheck the procedures manual).

After that, you can set about diagnosing the REAL problem. Excessively advanced timing will cause loud clattering and vibration, but normal timing will not. You should have somebody look at the timing belt, too, and make sure the cam and pump timing are still correct. If the belt has jumped a tooth, you're within an ace of disaster! I doubt that's the case, but any time the engine is "running rough" or "clattering" unusually, this bears examining.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This sounds very serious, but I don't think this issue has gone that far - no "clattering", etc. (See next.)

How long was this "running rougher than it should" going on, and what are you comparing it to? These engines do tend to be a little noisier and rougher after they get broken in, but if it happened all of a sudden, recently, there is a problem. I'd just go about checking all the basics...timing, etc. If everything is okay, have an experienced TDI-er listen and give you an opinion. It may just be normal. If everything else is on target, but you lose fuel economy, you may have a bad injector. (Or more than one.) Oil analysis, after a 10K interval, can be instructive.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe this is just a case of the engine breaking in (I did not know they got noiser and rougher after breaking in). I started to think that it was slightly noiser and rougher (more vibration apparent through all controls - steering wheel, pedals, gear shift) after an earlier service incident in August. Mickey, you may remember, since you replied at that time. This same dealer had left my car idling in 95 degree heat for many hours to try to replicate my "claimed" intermitent failure of the AC Compressor. (I know what you're thinking... "how many times does this dolt have to be kicked in the head before he stops walking behind the ass end of the horse?").

This was not a dramatic amount of change, more like an accumulation. After I get the timing checked and re-set properly, I will try to search out the ears of an experienced TDI-er, per your suggestion. Mileage, by the way has been steadily improving with break-in: when new, I averaged around 42-43 mpg, now averaging about 47-48 mpg. The increased amount, and strange quality of the exhaust odor is still an issue, as is the hard cold starting, but I'm still going to put my money on the injection timing, since these last two issues surfaced after they "adjusted" the timing.

I still contend that, unless you have the skills and tools to do most of the TDI engine work yourself (as many of you are), owning and servicing a TDI in this country is a frustrating and gut wrenching proposition, due to the scarcity of skilled TDI mechanics.

You have 24K? Have you changed the fuel filter? If not, do so immediately!

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I do my own Oil & Filter changes at 10K intervals (or have it done at my independent mechanics shop - depending on how busy I am that week): VW / OEM Filter Elements & Mobil Delvac 1 ($19.99 @ Farm & Fleet). If I go to my mechanic, he only charges me $10.00, since I bring my own filter and oil (he has 3 bays he works out of at a Shell station!). I changed the fuel filter at 22,000. No water that I could see in the drained fuel, and changing the filter filter did not have any effect on the smoothness of the engine.

Mickey, thank you for your well considered response.

Originally posted by mickey:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> plus until my warranty expires, I'll need to work through the dealer network (rather than an independent).

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not true. If they tell you that's the case, they're lying.

-mickey</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I know I have the right to have the car serviced elsewhere, or do it myself (save receipts, keep a log, etc.). I was referring to dealing with warranty claims & fixes.

This last service cost me $0.00. Obviously, an independent would have had to charge me something for the work.

But then again, had I paid $$ to a mechanic to adjust my timing and find my Power Steering leak, and had the job done right the first time, I wouldn't have to be spending all this time at Fred's researching my "problems."

Maybe you get what you pay for.