VW's latest response about biodiesel in TDI

Interesting to me that no one is talking about trying to use the new GM fuel filter. I am going to look into this!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

A another biofuel to get the large corp. farms more of our tax dollars. It raises food prices just like ethanol. The UN all ready stated it is causing food shortages.

Fuel vs food

The main agricultural crops used for industrial bio-fuels are vegetable and seed oils such as palm, soy, sunflower, rapeseed, and jatropha for biodiesel, maize, wheat and sugars for ethanol. Except for jatropha (see later), the feedstock are all food crops. The most immediate effect of the push for industrial bio-fuels is to compete with food for feedstock, thereby inflating food prices. The Food and Agricultural Organization estimates that in 2008/9, 125 million tonnes of cereals were diverted into bio-fuel production. In 2010, more cereal (1 107 million tonnes) were diverted into animal feed and industrial uses than for feeding people (1 013 million tonnes). Overall, world food prices increased by 75 percent from 2006 to the middle of 2008, but the price for staple food grains (such as wheat, rice and maize) went up by 126 percent. For the 82 low income food deficient countries, import bills shot up. Each 10 percent increase in the price of cereals adds nearly US$4.5 billion to the total cereals import cost of developing countries that are net importers. Independent analysts have concluded that industrial bio-fuels have been responsible for 30 to 75 percent of the global food price increase in 2008.
To make matters much worse, huge tracts of land have been taken out of food production, exacerbating landlessness everywhere (see [2] ‘Land Rush’ as Threats to Food Security Intensify, SiS 46). Action Aid reports that [1] in just five African countries 1.1 million hectares have been given over to industrial bio-fuels for export; while 1.4 million ha were taken over simultaneously to produce food for export. As bio-fuels displace food from agricultural land in developed countries, and as rich countries run out of water for agriculture, food production is increasingly outsourced to cheap land available in poor countries [2].
Food and fuel are competing everywhere for land. EU companies have already acquired or requested at least five million hectares of land for industrial bio-fuels in developing countries [1]. Just to meet the EU’s ten percent target would require 17.5 million hectares for growing bio-fuels in developing countries.

Also;

"A potentially more serious constraint is water. Deborah Elcock at Argonne National Laboratory, Washington D.C. combines projections of energy production developed by the US Department of Energy with estimates of water consumption on a per-unit basis for coal, oil, gas, and biofuels production. The results show that water consumed for energy production is expected to increase by nearly 70 percent, with most of the increase due to water consumed for biofuels (biodiesel and ethanol). Water consumption for biofuels is expected to rise by almost 250 percent (Fig. 2), most of it used in growing the bioenergy crops."
ISIS Report 06/12/10

It clearly shows that the waste by-product from harvesting foodstock (corn stocks, bean plants, etc) would be a better source for producing bio-fuels. However, no one has been able to develop a cost generating process of breaking down the plant startches into the basic chemicals that can the be used to produce fuels. They companies involved in this are still trying to reach a cost neutral position. It's like the alge work: lots of good ideas and some progress but still nothing approaching a commercial sucess.

What about Hemp Crops for Making Bio-Diesel?

You still have to dedicate the land to growing hemp instead of foodstocks. Although it will grow in the ditches (good old Iowa ditch weed), I've not seen enough grown for use as an oil source.

Tap2112 said:

It is due to a small injection of fuel after the combustion stage. It is how the manufacturers chose to meet the new SMOG regulations. Regular diesel burns at a much lower temperature than biodiesel and the post combustion pressure and temps are not enough to completely burn the biodiesel, whereas it will burn the diesel #2 fuel.

Click to expand...

Just a minor correction - the post injection does not burn in the cylinder. It is vaporized and heated, it then makes it's way to the DOC/DPF where it ignites and facilitates the regeneration cycle of the DPF.

But then the basic reasoning is sound - the biodiesel has a higher vaporization point than D2. It condenses on the cylinder walls and runs down to drip into the crankcase.

Maybe some of the engineers could chime in with the specifics?

Jason

http://www.forbes.com/sites/martinlamonica/2012/09/17/audi-places-its-biofuel-bets-on-joule/

"The deal with Audi helps validate Joule’s technology and gives Audi a potentially important relationship as it seeks to be a carbon-neutral driving. “Joule and the fuels it is developing can ultimately enable sustainable mobility, as its highly-efficient process consumes waste CO2 emissions, avoids depletion of natural resources and doesn’t require agricultural feedstock or arable land,” says Reiner Manglod, the head of environmental products at Audi in a statement."

http://www.jouleunlimited.com/

"Joule’s renewable fuel platform will best the scale, productivities and costs of any known alternative to fossil fuel today, with no reliance on biomass feedstocks or precious natural resources. Our inputs are sunlight, waste CO2 and non-potable water. Our output? Millions of gallons of clean, renewable fuel that drops into existing infrastructure. Next step: change the world."


-

Lightflyer1 said:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/martinlamonica/2012/09/17/audi-places-its-biofuel-bets-on-joule/

"The deal with Audi helps validate Joule’s technology and gives Audi a potentially important relationship as it seeks to be a carbon-neutral driving. “Joule and the fuels it is developing can ultimately enable sustainable mobility, as its highly-efficient process consumes waste CO2 emissions, avoids depletion of natural resources and doesn’t require agricultural feedstock or arable land,” says Reiner Manglod, the head of environmental products at Audi in a statement."

http://www.jouleunlimited.com/

"Joule’s renewable fuel platform will best the scale, productivities and costs of any known alternative to fossil fuel today, with no reliance on biomass feedstocks or precious natural resources. Our inputs are sunlight, waste CO2 and non-potable water. Our output? Millions of gallons of clean, renewable fuel that drops into existing infrastructure. Next step: change the world."


-

Click to expand...

Holy Crap! This is awesome!

I hope they succeed and eventually go public.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Cross your fingers but don't hold your breath! I would drive out to see their plant in Hobbs, NM, but they already run me off from their pilot plant in Leander, TX near me, when I dwell too long.

Ludicrous Speed TDI CUP said:

From what I've talked to several guy's in the chat about this topic is that when the newer TDI's go into Re-gen they put extra diesel in the exhaust stroke which ends up down past rings into oil... diluting the oil with the bio-diesel over 10,000mi oil changes with the "VW Spec" oil will cause the oil not to be protective enough and do engine wear/damage.

Click to expand...

Just an aside but looking thru a few of the oil analyses shows that fuel in the oil does not seem to be an issue with this engine.

SilverGhost said:

.....

But then the basic reasoning is sound - the biodiesel has a higher vaporization point than D2. It condenses on the cylinder walls and runs down to drip into the crankcase.

Maybe some of the engineers could chime in with the specifics?

Jason

Click to expand...

I've read a lot of replies to this effect, but I read one other that finally clicked. The thing is that biodiesel has a lower ignition temperature than D2, and so it should more easily ignite. The exhaust temperature is well above the ignition point of either fuel, so both should ignite in the combustion chamber.

What I read that made sense is that D2 and biodiesel both get past the piston rings to dilute the engine oil. The difference is that D2 vaporizes at a lower temperature and so boils off. Biodiesel, with a higher vaporization temperature, stays in the oil.

Tap2112 said:

It is due to a small injection of fuel after the combustion stage... Regular diesel burns at a much lower temperature than biodiesel and the post combustion pressure and temps are not enough to completely burn the biodiesel, whereas it will burn the diesel #2 fuel.

Click to expand...

Is VW still recommending biodiesel in Europe, or has that now changed too?

I find it funny the scrutiny of the energy and water needed to produce stocks for fuel, but yet no one looks at the same energy waste for food production. There is a HUGE loss of energy and water in the production of food crops everyday. It is all a NET LOSS in the world.

Therefore I think this is a non-sense argument against growing crops for fuel. The point is that oil will be gone one day so we will need to have some alternative if we are to continue our economies as is.

The real waste of energy/water/resourses is in gowing crops to feed livestock, if we are looking to feed people.

Don't take my meat away! Make me start raising clandestine chickens and such. Guess I'll have to move to Alaska and become a Yukon man and hunt for my dinner.

TomB said:

I find it funny the scrutiny of the energy and water needed to produce stocks for fuel, but yet no one looks at the same energy waste for food production. There is a HUGE loss of energy and water in the production of food crops everyday. It is all a NET LOSS in the world.

Therefore I think this is a non-sense argument against growing crops for fuel. The point is that oil will be gone one day so we will need to have some alternative if we are to continue our economies as is.

Click to expand...

So, we convert all of the foodstock and feedstock land to producing plants for fuel. What will we then use for putting food on the table? I would rather eat and feed my children than drive.

Is VW still recommending biodiesel in Europe, or has that now changed too?

did biodiesel really fail my fuel system?

Aloha Kai and others. Writing fr Honolulu and new to this forum. Really appreciate all the info and opinions here. I have a 2011 Golf TDI with 12,400 miles on it. I started using B-99 from Pacific Biodiesel (at the 76 station on Nimitz Hwy) about 7 months ago, at about 6000 miles. I use the b-99 about 80% of the time, the other 20% of the time is the B-5 standard. I had it serviced at 9300 miles as part of the warranty where they installed fuel line dampers but made no mention of anything regarding the biodiesel or any clogging of fuel lines etc.
Yesterday the car would not start, it got towed to the Honolulu VW dealer for servicing. Right away without looking at the car, they said if i was using biodiesel that the warranty would not cover and that it would likely be there for a month and cost $5-6k to replace the entire fuel system.
My main question is: Was biodiesel really the cause of what they are saying is a failed fuel system
My follow-up questions are:
- How much biodiesel does it actually take to make the system fail (based on receipts fr my fill-ups I have a high estimate of 120 gallons of b-99 have been put in the car)
- should I be questioning the service ppl about the HPFP failures that I've been reading about? and therefore should I report this on the NHTSA site?
- I'm 50% of the way through my 3-yr standard warranty, if I want to stick with biodiesel, should I just not get it fixed at the dealer, walk from the remaining 18months on my warranty, and find another mechanic to install the proper fuel lines to support biodiesel?
Any and all help appreciated!

You have already voided your warranty by using B99. When you disregarded the VW 5% rule you took things into your own hands. If they choose not to cover it, it is all yours. You can report to the NHTSA if you like, but you are an outlier now with B99 use. If they fail to cover you may want to take it to an independent mechanic who is familiar with these cars and see what they can do for you. At the moment you just need to be quiet and see what they say is up. If you stick with bio use greater than 5% you need to be ready to pay out of pocket if the situation arises. Read up here on bio use in these later model cars so you know more about what you are doing and subjecting yourself to. Welcome to tdiclub and hope it all works out well for you! Please let us know what happens and what codes or summary they tell you is wrong.

My2011golfhonolulu> these cars are not designed to run on b99 at all . It's not even as simple of replacing some lines . Along with ruining the fuel system, b99 will destroy your emissions system which is also several thousand to replace and dilute your oil with fuel damaging the engine. The rise in oil level from fuel dilution could also get so high it could be sucked through, ruin your turbo , intercooler and hydrolock your motor. As stated in the previous post VW only approves up to B5(also stated in owners manual) because anything higher will cause severe damage . Best luck with this expensive mistake.

my2011golfhonolulu said:

Aloha Kai and others. Writing fr Honolulu and new to this forum. Really appreciate all the info and opinions here. I have a 2011 Golf TDI with 12,400 miles on it. I started using B-99 from Pacific Biodiesel (at the 76 station on Nimitz Hwy) about 7 months ago, at about 6000 miles. I use the b-99 about 80% of the time, the other 20% of the time is the B-5 standard. I had it serviced at 9300 miles as part of the warranty where they installed fuel line dampers but made no mention of anything regarding the biodiesel or any clogging of fuel lines etc.
Yesterday the car would not start, it got towed to the Honolulu VW dealer for servicing. Right away without looking at the car, they said if i was using biodiesel that the warranty would not cover and that it would likely be there for a month and cost $5-6k to replace the entire fuel system.
My main question is: Was biodiesel really the cause of what they are saying is a failed fuel system
My follow-up questions are:
- How much biodiesel does it actually take to make the system fail (based on receipts fr my fill-ups I have a high estimate of 120 gallons of b-99 have been put in the car)
- should I be questioning the service ppl about the HPFP failures that I've been reading about? and therefore should I report this on the NHTSA site?
- I'm 50% of the way through my 3-yr standard warranty, if I want to stick with biodiesel, should I just not get it fixed at the dealer, walk from the remaining 18months on my warranty, and find another mechanic to install the proper fuel lines to support biodiesel?
Any and all help appreciated!

Click to expand...

It's unlikely that using B99 at that mileage has had any detrimental effect on your fuel system components. Persistent long term use of B99 is another matter entirely. A used oil analysis would tell you how much dilution has taken place and my own educated guess would be not that much in a new engine with good compression. There is an outside chance that the nozzles have clogged but I think its unlikely over just a few thousand miles. The risk is even lower if it was properly refined and sold from a reputable retailer. However it does affect any warranty claim if the dealership knows that you went above the mandated allowable amount of 5% bio.

On my last service @20k I was told that my fuel was the best quality the shop had seen out of all the TDI's they had serviced. I am regularly running between 5 and 20% bio. My UOA has not shown any dilution. Out of warranty I plan on running exclusive 20% bio with 5k UOA's. I usually go a little out of my way to fill up with premium 5-20% bio American refined Diesel that comes from the Illinois oil basin and refined by Countrymark. Occasionally I will dilute with standard diesel from the local Speedway if I can't be bothered to drive to the Countrymark station 15 miles away

Scratcher said:

A used oil analysis would tell you how much dilution has taken place.

Click to expand...

Oil dilution is not the only issue with running high concentrations of biodiesel in a new (CR) engine. The extreme pressures (over 26,000 psi) and the resultant high fuel temperatures encountered in our fuel injection systems can (and will) cause biodiesel to oxidize. This can lead to clogged injectors and unwanted deposits in other areas. I would strongly advise not going much over the officially recommended 5% bio. Up to 10% is probably relatively safe, but why push your luck.

Another issue is that all biodiesel is not created equal. We tend to talk about biodiesel as if it was a single product - it is not. The source of the raw feed stock (soy bean oil, Canola oil, animal fat, or waste cooking oil - which can be a mixture of any or all of the others) can make a significant difference in the way the fuel behaves in our fuel injection systems. I choose to stick with petroleum based D2 whenever possible.

Have Fun!

Don

P.S. As to whether or not bio actually caused our Hawaiian member's engine failure, I do not know. It really depends on exactly what failed and how it failed. However, it was obviously the cause of the failure of his warranty.

JSWTDI09 said:

. The extreme pressures (over 26,000 psi) and the resultant high fuel temperatures encountered in our fuel injection systems can (and will) cause biodiesel to oxidize. This can lead to clogged injectors and unwanted deposits in other areas..

Click to expand...

See my edited post on possible clogging of nozzles

JSWTDI09 said:

Another issue is that all biodiesel is not created equal. We tend to talk about biodiesel as if it was a single product - it is not. The source of the raw feed stock (soy bean oil, Canola oil, animal fat, or waste cooking oil - which can be a mixture of any or all of the others) can make a significant difference in the way the fuel behaves in our fuel injection systems. I choose to stick with petroleum based D2 whenever possible.
.

Click to expand...

That's why i only ever use Bio from a known reputable refining source.
http://www.countrymark.com/countrymark/Fuels/biodiesel.aspx

2013 TDI Sportwagen

So I'm the proud owner of a new TDI Sportwagen and I just completed my first fill up. I was low on fuel in the middle of work appointments and went to a station with diesel, but that nozzle wouldn't fit and I don't have an adaptor. So the attendant directs me to a station down the road with diesel. I get there to find out it's biodiesel and the pump gives a range of possible ratings, which I cannot exactly recall. I asked the attendant, who naturally said it was fine. Given my slightly pressured time and unknown distance to the next closest diesel station, I filled it up. I was caught off guard a bit as I really didn't know that biodiesel was so available. I kind of still thought it was a specialty thing that you had to seek out a bit. Anyway, I'm learning quickly and feel like I made a mistake with this fill up. From what I'm reading though, a single tank is probably not going to cause any problems, but was hoping for some input. I plan on sticking to the recommended 5% in the future.

kjclow said:

So, we convert all of the foodstock and feedstock land to producing plants for fuel. What will we then use for putting food on the table? I would rather eat and feed my children than drive.

Click to expand...

No! You missed the point. You stop worry about the loss and just produce what you need.

Washington State uses all the water from the Cascade mountain rivers to grow HAY, yes HAY that is shipped overseas to Japan and Asia. I hear no one complaining about that net loss and use of water for NON FOOD crops.

As pointed out the issue of B100 use is not about the fuel system, it is the oil dilution and the resulting damage from oil that no longer meets specs.

That causes internal mechanical damage, catalytic converter damage, turbo damage and other issues.

cmac126 said:

So I'm the proud owner of a new TDI Sportwagen and I just completed my first fill up. I was low on fuel in the middle of work appointments and went to a station with diesel, but that nozzle wouldn't fit and I don't have an adaptor. So the attendant directs me to a station down the road with diesel. I get there to find out it's biodiesel and the pump gives a range of possible ratings, which I cannot exactly recall. I asked the attendant, who naturally said it was fine. Given my slightly pressured time and unknown distance to the next closest diesel station, I filled it up. I was caught off guard a bit as I really didn't know that biodiesel was so available. I kind of still thought it was a specialty thing that you had to seek out a bit. Anyway, I'm learning quickly and feel like I made a mistake with this fill up. From what I'm reading though, a single tank is probably not going to cause any problems, but was hoping for some input. I plan on sticking to the recommended 5% in the future.

Click to expand...

You are in Ill.. VW says up to B20 is okay for you to use with the caveat that you need to watch the oil level and change it early if it is rising. From my reading B11 is the predominant product, so you should have no issues other than to check your oil regularly. There is a list in the midwest forum of stations that sell D2 only as well as the letter
VW sent out. Drive on!

Lightflyer1 said:

You are in Ill.. VW says up to B20 is okay for you to use with the caveat that you need to watch the oil level and change it early if it is rising. From my reading B11 is the predominant product, so you should have no issues other than to check your oil regularly. There is a list in the midwest forum of stations that sell D2 only as well as the letter
VW sent out. Drive on!

Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback! Checking out the Midwest forum now.