NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

Second Turbo

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2003 ALH Wagon, 373K, 2nd 01M
Data Point

Well, it's 2013-12-22 and NHTSA EA11003 is still "Open".

I was at the dealership this week to diagnosis a MIL on our ALH, and asked the service manager and tech if they'd had any training yet on the MQB/EA288. Neither had any idea what I was talking about. Conversation drifted around to HPFP.

SM admitted that they'd had one in lately, and replaced everything except tank and lines, which were flushed. So if you have a failure, expect that to be proposed, ask to have everything replaced, and have previously contemplated whether you are willing to foot the bill for buying new parts for those which will otherwise be flushed.
 

thebigarniedog

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Fail Command (Central Ohio)
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1998 Jetta tdi
Well, it's 2013-12-22 and NHTSA EA11003 is still "Open".

I was at the dealership this week to diagnosis a MIL on our ALH, and asked the service manager and tech if they'd had any training yet on the MQB/EA288. Neither had any idea what I was talking about. Conversation drifted around to HPFP.

SM admitted that they'd had one in lately, and replaced everything except tank and lines, which were flushed. So if you have a failure, expect that to be proposed, ask to have everything replaced, and have previously contemplated whether you are willing to foot the bill for buying new parts for those which will otherwise be flushed.
As I predicted, way back when, VW has no interest in fixing this issue. Deny, blame the customer and deny some more while you play out the clock. A whole generation of do not buy this engine later, the hope is the upcoming engine is something worth buying. A fitting testament is that right now you can lease a 2013 Jetta tdi for $189 a month. Remember when dealers introduced the new 2009 Jetta with "market adjusted pricing".... and people lined up to pay that. I still laugh about it.......
 

South Coast Guy

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As I predicted, way back when, VW has no interest in fixing this issue. Deny, blame the customer and deny some more while you play out the clock. A whole generation of do not buy this engine later, the hope is the upcoming engine is something worth buying. A fitting testament is that right now you can lease a 2013 Jetta tdi for $189 a month. Remember when dealers introduced the new 2009 Jetta with "market adjusted pricing".... and people lined up to pay that. I still laugh about it.......
I seems to me that VW has taken a reasonable approach to the problem. They have fixed almost every occurrance on their dime. Do you know the cause of the problem? Is it fuel quality? Poor quality pumps? Both?

As far as leasing, BMW is offering good terms and prices. Does that mean they are making crap cars and desperate to unload them?
 

tditom

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formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
I seems to me that VW has taken a reasonable approach to the problem. They have fixed almost every occurrance on their dime. Do you know the cause of the problem? Is it fuel quality? Poor quality pumps? Both?
...
If what VW has done for this issue seems reasonable to you, then you'd qualify as a favorite customer of theirs. I'd say you set the bar too low.

You know the answer to your first question: no one except VW and Bosch knows the cause of the problem. That's part of the bigger issue: They aren't being transparent with current or prospective buyers.

I think its safe to speculate that the design of the pump is marginal for the quality of fuel available to this market. Throw in manufacturing variance and you have a component with an unacceptable failure rate due to cost prohibitive failure mode.

You think its great that VW has covered most pump replacements on their dime. OK, but we don't know what they'll do for subsequent owners. At some point they're bound to make a business decision that will leave someone holding the bag on an HPFP replacement. What is reasonable to you for that? I can tell you that I would not think twice about buying a well maintained ALH with 150k mi (or advising friends/family to do the same), but I will no longer do that for CR model tdi's. When VW stops the good will replacements on second or third hand owners then you will see an impact on CR tdi resale values.
 

truman

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If what VW has done for this issue seems reasonable to you, then you'd qualify as a favorite customer of theirs. I'd say you set the bar too low.

You know the answer to your first question: no one except VW and Bosch knows the cause of the problem. That's part of the bigger issue: They aren't being transparent with current or prospective buyers.

I think its safe to speculate that the design of the pump is marginal for the quality of fuel available to this market. Throw in manufacturing variance and you have a component with an unacceptable failure rate due to cost prohibitive failure mode.

You think its great that VW has covered most pump replacements on their dime. OK, but we don't know what they'll do for subsequent owners. At some point they're bound to make a business decision that will leave someone holding the bag on an HPFP replacement. What is reasonable to you for that? I can tell you that I would not think twice about buying a well maintained ALH with 150k mi (or advising friends/family to do the same), but I will no longer do that for CR model tdi's. When VW stops the good will replacements on second or third hand owners then you will see an impact on CR tdi resale values.
I have the same opinion. I would buy a gasser before I would buy a recent CR TDI. Thankfully, I can probably avoid that dilemma for a few more years.
 

South Coast Guy

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So you are in the group that thinks VW should buy back all the cars with this pump? Offer an unlimited mileage warranty? I would support that, but no car manufacturer has ever done this. And if you have been driving cars as long as I have, there are many cars that would qualify for buy-backs.
 

compu_85

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... None :S
You think its great that VW has covered most pump replacements on their dime. OK, but we don't know what they'll do for subsequent owners. At some point they're bound to make a business decision that will leave someone holding the bag
This sounds a lot like what Mercedes did with the owners of 3.5 diesels who needed engine replacements. Most original owners got free repairs, but 2nd and 3rd hand owners were left with a lighter wallet. They only sold ~4,000 cars here with that engine so it wasn't as huge of a deal as the thousands of CR TDIs running around now.

-J
 

DonMcD

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Boston
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2013 Jetta
Sadly, I have joined the club. Second failed fuel pump in just over 10k mi.

First covered under warranty without question. The second is awaiting regional manager approval. How rarified is the club of multiple failures? I have lost trust in the vehicle. The damned failure is so abrupt. Do I dare drive any distance from home?

The sad thing is that I really like this car. If I chose to sell it I will be compromising to get anything else. There really isn't anything else that I want right now. It's the right compromise between performance and economy (and character). I would have liked a GLI but if I dump this car, I won't reward VW by replacing it with another VW. They'll be dead to me!
 

GoFaster

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Your second failure should be covered explicitly under the standard replacement-parts warranty. With a failure so shortly after the first, it is quite possibly an installation issue. (Something wasn't clean enough on re-assembly, or something of that sort.)

There have been a number of second-failure situations. Nowhere near as many as first-failure, of course, but a lot more than there should be.

And this is on a 2013 model vehicle?? I'd be inquiring about a buy-back.

I'm not touching a common-rail Golf/Jetta TDI with a ten foot pole, and I'm reluctant to own anything that has a Bosch CP4 injector pump outside of warranty. If that means driving a plain ordinary non-turbo port-fuel-injected gas engine vehicle (which is what I am) ... so be it. Proven technology. It works.

The Passat TDI has some changes in the fuel system that seem to have addressed the issue. Personally, I don't like the car, but if you are okay with it, that might be an option. More expensive, though.
 

South Coast Guy

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Sadly, I have joined the club. Second failed fuel pump in just over 10k mi.

First covered under warranty without question. The second is awaiting regional manager approval. How rarified is the club of multiple failures? I have lost trust in the vehicle. The damned failure is so abrupt. Do I dare drive any distance from home?

The sad thing is that I really like this car. If I chose to sell it I will be compromising to get anything else. There really isn't anything else that I want right now. It's the right compromise between performance and economy (and character). I would have liked a GLI but if I dump this car, I won't reward VW by replacing it with another VW. They'll be dead to me!
If I was you, I would move on from VW, too.
 

tditom

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So you are in the group that thinks VW should buy back all the cars with this pump? Offer an unlimited mileage warranty? I would support that, but no car manufacturer has ever done this. And if you have been driving cars as long as I have, there are many cars that would qualify for buy-backs.
Who said anything about buy-backs?:confused:
Here is what I want:
  1. VW issues a public statement informing all of what is the cause of the problem.
  2. VW informs all of the scope of the problem (MY and VIN impacted)
  3. VW issues a transferable HPFP warranty extension out to at least 250k mi (HPFP failure due to proven misfuelings wouldn't be covered)
 

tditom

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...I'm reluctant to own anything that has a Bosch CP4 injector pump outside of warranty....
The Passat TDI has some changes in the fuel system that seem to have addressed the issue...
At this point I would consider a Passat TDI or BMW 328d (same pump and injector set up as the Passat)
 

kjclow

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Who said anything about buy-backs?:confused:
Here is what I want:
  1. VW issues a public statement informing all of what is the cause of the problem.
  2. VW informs all of the scope of the problem (MY and VIN impacted)
  3. VW issues a transferable HPFP warranty extension out to at least 250k mi (HPFP failure due to proven misfuelings wouldn't be covered)
Owning two CR diesels! I too would love to see VW step and and supply at least the same information. A 250k transferable warranty might be too much. I don't see any of this happening without the push from NHTSA.
 

CopaMundial

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Owning two CR diesels! I too would love to see VW step and and supply at least the same information. A 250k transferable warranty might be too much. I don't see any of this happening without the push from NHTSA.
But the focus of the NHTSA isn't consumer protection... it's safety.
The only reason they're involved is because of the safety risk presented by a car dying in highway traffic.
So their finding regarding VW would either be (a) this is bad enough for a recall... or (b) it's not bad enough for a recall and therefor they could care less.

They would not push for extended warranty, as that is just financial protection for the consumer and has nothing to do with safety.
 

MonsterTDI09

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I would buy another CR with out a second though. Yes the HPFP is not perfect but they have improve it. With EA288 using oil lubed belt for the oil pump with variable pressure pump this one of other changes. So pick your poison.
 

South Coast Guy

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Who said anything about buy-backs?:confused:
Here is what I want:
  1. VW issues a public statement informing all of what is the cause of the problem.
  2. VW informs all of the scope of the problem (MY and VIN impacted)
  3. VW issues a transferable HPFP warranty extension out to at least 250k mi (HPFP failure due to proven misfuelings wouldn't be covered)
That would be a good idea, but I have never heard any manufacturer publicly announcing the cause of a problem like this or offering a transferable warranty up to 250K. I think if VW knew the pump was the problem, they would replace them at Bosch's expense. But who knows what the business relationship is between VW and Bosch related to parts warranty, etc?

And I mentioned buy-backs because several posters think that VW should do this.
 

GoFaster

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You are never going to get a public admission of fault, and you are never going to get a lifetime warranty or to any set number as high as 250,000 mi (400,000 km), and if they DO offer a set extended warranty on this part and your pump fails 1 mile past that warranty, you will be on your own.

I've already said this many times. The status quo, in which the NHTSA has an open case to keep VW on their toes and VW repairs these vehicles outside of warranty in order to not rock the boat too much, is likely the best possible realistic scenario. VW in Canada has not had as many failures, but in those that have happened, they seem much more reluctant to pay up ... we don't have NHTSA and there haven't been enough cases to push Transport Canada to do anything about it.

VW is still (officially) under the delusion that these failures are caused by misfueling. As long as that is publicly their position, the moment NHTSA closes the investigation there is a significant possibility that they will stop covering these outside of warranty ... and as long as that is publicly their position, I'm not buying one.
 
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carnotgas

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Cause of the problem

You can be sure that VW and Bosch know exactly what the problem is. Many engineering studies have been done. It will never made public for liability reasons. I used to work for an automotive engineering consulting firm. That's how it works.
 

tditom

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You are never going to get a public admission of fault, ....
Never?
VW apologizes to Chinese customers for DSG gearbox problem
By Carmen Lee From Gasgoo.comMay 25, 2012
Gasgoo.com (Shanghai May 24) - Volkswagen officially apologized today for the mishaps its DSG gearboxes have been causing in China, money.163.com reported. VW acknowledged the issues that the DQ200 dual-clutch transmissions have been causing in Chinese vehicles, and agreed to extend the warranty for DSG gearboxes to ten years and 160,000 km.
Consumers have constantly been reporting having problems with VW's DSG gearboxes since last year. The General Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine's (AQSIQ) Defective Products Management Center sent a request to the manufacturer in March, urging them to find a workable solution for the problem, which they worry poses a potential safety risk to consumers. However, in its apology VW did not mention the safety concerns brought up by AQSIQ and many consumers in the country.
VW's attitude regarding the issue has disappointed several in the industry. As early as February, the manufacturer refused to accept that the problem constituted a real safety risk, choosing to implement a dealer-installed software update to resolve it.
According to a statement made by VW Group China Vice President Yang Meihong at the time, the scope of the gearbox issue was very limited, and did not warrant a recall.
The 30 minute software update was installed on around 500,000 VW and Skoda vehicles from FAW-VW and Shanghai VW. However, soon after having the update installed, the problems resurfaced, with new issues also beginning to appear.
A survey done by auto quality website 12365auto.com earlier this month found that VW's faulty DSG gearboxes remained the most complained about problem among automobile owners.
link
 

tditom

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Not sure what to make of this one:
Volkswagen says it is “working hard” to improving the quality of its vehicles and customer service.
The German brand has been languishing at the lower end of independent automotive quality surveys in recent years, and it has also been the intense focus of online forums brimming with owner complaints.
In March Volkswagen said it was recalling vehicles in China equipped with DSG (dual-clutch auto) gearboxes (pictured in cutaway form below) after Chinese VW owners reported issues such as loss of power and abnormal vibrations.
Dr Ulrich Hackenberg, Volkswagen’s member of the board of management responsible for development (main image), told CarAdvice at the recent VW Golf Mark 7 launch the company has assigned an internal working group to specifically tackle the problem.
“Quality is very important – especially for Volkswagen,” said Hackenberg. “We know that there’s some potential to become better and we are working hard on that.
“We have made taskforce in Wolfsburg to improve the quality gain against the customer. [But] quality is not only relying on a component [to work correctly], it’s also how you manage a problem.
VW DSG double clutches_RS2
“You can’t avoid problems, but you have to manage the problems. If the customer is coming with a problem and we can help him immediately then fine, but if the customer has to come maybe twice or three times the problem is bigger.
“So we have to improve the whole process, we know that. We have to do something and we are working hard.
“And it’s very important to find out from country to country the differences because maybe the customer is dealing in a different way with the car, or the traffic is different, or the climate is different. Often we find we have a problem in a specific market and we don’t see that problem in other markets.
“So we have to find out together with the organisation that is here in the region, what are the reasons, then we find the right answers to manage it.”
John White VW
Volkswagen Australia’s newly appointed Canadian boss, John White (above), has already pinpointed customer service as a key area for him to address locally.
“If I may add to [the] the customer treatment part, in terms of my early assessment after a couple of weeks into the job here is something we need to improve,” said White. “It’s something that’s on my radar screen in terms of being one of my top 3 priorities.
“Clearly we need to be better with that. I’ve seen some data and some examples of where I think we can take some action and I want to take the opportunity to see what we’ve done in other markets to improve that. We can take our share of [the improvements] here, and with the dealer body. We need to work on that and we will.”
In a 2012 JD Power Asia-Pacific study focused on customer service in Australia, Volkswagen was the lowest ranked of 12 car makers.
The Australia Customer Service Index Study also included Honda and Toyota (joint best), Subaru, Mazda and Mitsubishi (all above the industry average), with the below-average manufacturers comprising Kia, Hyundai, Holden, Ford, Nissan, Suzuki and Volkswagen.
Volkswagen has acknowledged improving its quality reputation locally will be important for its ambitions to grow sales significantly in Australia.
The company has also announced this week that it is developing a 10-speed version of the DSG gearbox among other technological developments.
link
VW of North America, if you ever read these forums, please understand that you are FAILING to manage this problem. Big Time.
 
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Diesl

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A 250k transferable warranty might be too much. I don't see any of this happening without the push from NHTSA.
My previous car (and engine) lasted over 300k miles. And that one didn't come with all the advertising talk about 'German engineering'. Given VW's self-styled image, shouldn't one expect at least as much from a Volkswagen?

I don't think a 250k miles warranty is too much.
 

dzcad90

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Eh.. China is a bit different than the US. You piss off the Chinese, they will not think twice about revoking your privilege to do business there. Also, China is a huge market for VW. Not that the US isn't, but VW has a big future there and they don't want to gamble with it.
 

vipmike

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MISSISSAUGA
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At list that should be a recall ,problems with bosh hpfp pump that not only vw also bmw and not only US vehicles but European where diesel fuel is not the problem..
 

chudzikb

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You are never going to get a public admission of fault, and you are never going to get a lifetime warranty or to any set number as high as 250,000 mi (400,000 km), and if they DO offer a set extended warranty on this part and your pump fails 1 mile past that warranty, you will be on your own.

I've already said this many times. The status quo, in which the NHTSA has an open case to keep VW on their toes and VW repairs these vehicles outside of warranty in order to not rock the boat too much, is likely the best possible realistic scenario. VW in Canada has not had as many failures, but in those that have happened, they seem much more reluctant to pay up ... we don't have NHTSA and there haven't been enough cases to push Transport Canada to do anything about it.

VW is still (officially) under the delusion that these failures are caused by misfueling. As long as that is publicly their position, the moment NHTSA closes the investigation there is a significant possibility that they will stop covering these outside of warranty ... and as long as that is publicly their position, I'm not buying one.
You my friend are thinking correctly! Tracks my thinking on the issue exactly, and why do we think like that? Past history is certainly an indication of future performance especially with respect to VW's. Everyone has their problems, just seems like this one is less manageable and more random than others we have experienced with VW's in the past. Parts fail, I get that, it is all about the collateral damage from the part failure.

All that said, I certainly do feel for the CR owners...
 
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