High Pressure Fuel Pump (HPFP) failure - not blamed on fuel

birkie

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Location
Syracuse, NY
TDI
'13 jetta wagon, red
Hi, all

The HPFP in my '09 Sportwagen failed about two weeks ago. From what I gather, my situation is slightly unusual in that (a) my vehicle does not have an '08 build date, (b) the fuel was never blamed and (c) the failure mode may have been different - there were no metal shavings anywhere. In the interest of sharing data, here is my story:

Car details
------------
Build date: 02/09
Body: Wagon
Transmission: Manual
Miles: 23633
Fuel additives: none

Symptoms:
-------------
Initially, it seemed like the "cold start scare" problem. Temp in the '30s, rainy, car started up normally but stalled abruptly after two seconds. Immediately afterwards, the engine would not even turn over. Half-hour later it would turn over, but not fire. Had it towed to dealer here in Syracuse, and they were unable to start it as well.

Diagnosis
-----------
While initially describing the problem over the phone (before the tow truck came), I was asked some usual triage questions - including if I thought it could be bad fuel. I said no, as the tank had 430 miles, and it had been running perfectly.

After a few days, I spoke with the tech who was working on the car. They had been working with a VW engineer to daignose the problem. Apparently, one glow plug (on the end, driver's side. #1?) was wet with fuel. VW's theory was that the high pressure pump failed and was unable to produce sufficient pressure, causing fuel to dribble out of that injector. They had him measure the fuel pressure at the opposite end of the rail while cranking, and it was way low. They also had him look for shavings - by eye and by magnet. No metal found. He showed me the new pump (which had just arrived) - it's tiny compared to the VE pump in my '98.

Results:
---------
Replacing the HPFP seems to have worked. Looking at the summary of parts/labor performed under warranty, it seems they also did the ECU flash mentioned in the TSB, and replaced 03L-130-235-K ("pipe" - no idea) in addition to the high pressure pump (03L-130-755-A).

This could be a random manufacturer defect or part of a bad batch, but I am rather concerned about the number of pump failures seen so far.
I don't think there's any spectacular diesel around Syracuse (B2 or a neighborhood BP/Amoco would be so nice), so I may start using an additive, just to be safe. I picked up a bottle of Stanadyne at the dealer on my way out...
 

Starbucker

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Location
Portland, Oregon
TDI
2010 Jetta Sedan DSG
birkie said:
They also had him look for shavings - by eye and by magnet. No metal found.
This is good news if VW is now getting concerned to the point that they are directing dealers to investigate the suspended metal in the fuel. Hopefully those of us who have this symptom may get a TSB or other remedy from VW on the issue.
 

apaterso

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Location
Livermore, CA
TDI
Jetta 2009
birkie said:
....
but I am rather concerned about the number of pump failures seen so far.
...
Please let us not jump to the conclusion that there have been many HPFP failures. I don't know the exact number of 09-10 sold here in the USA or how many of those models are here on TDIclub, but out of that total we have had what??, maybe 6 reported HPFP failures. This does not seem like a chronic problem. I will hold this belief until either I have one or the evidense becomes conclusive.

Cheers
 

birkie

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Location
Syracuse, NY
TDI
'13 jetta wagon, red
I don't know the exact number of 09-10 sold here in the USA or how many of those models are here on TDIclub, but out of that total we have had what??, maybe 6 reported HPFP failures. This does not seem like a chronic problem. I will hold this belief until either I have one or the evidense becomes conclusive.
I was having a conversation with my wife last night about statistical sampling - basically, we reached the conclusion that we do not really have enough data to make a meaningful conclusion at this point. Best we can do at this point is share our data/stories so that we can detect trends (or lack of trends), and learn from others' experiences.

I do admit that once it happened to me, my level of worry went up. Not to the point of wanting to get rid of the car, but to the point that I think that fuel additives are an appropriate risk mitigation technique. Time will tell where the needle on the worry-o-meter will end up going.

Hopefully those of us who have this symptom may get a TSB or other remedy from VW on the issue.
Indeed. Unfortunately, one piece of information I was unable collect is if the replacement pump is identical to the old one, or if the design has evolved. I know the part number of the replacement pump, but that's about it. In any case, I was told that my situation did have the attention of some of the upper-level folks in the VW support food chain.
 

jbright

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Location
Indianapolis
TDI
2009 Jetta DSG
I wonder what the failure rate for this pump is world wide? Somewhere deep in the bowels of VW corporate central is there someone crunching the numbers and keeping track of all the various problems (I'm assuming dealerships and other official repair entities report data to the main office.)? Those figures, if they exist and I were privy to them, would help me greatly with various car related decisions. In the meantime, B-2 every tank.
 
Last edited:

GGK

Veteran Member
Joined
May 10, 2009
Location
High Desert in NM
TDI
2009 Jetta Sedan
I would think that if the VW tech line is asking about shavings ,it indicates that they have had more than one failure.
 

abakos

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Location
Knoxville, TN
TDI
-----
GGK said:
I would think that if the VW tech line is asking about shavings ,it indicates that they have had more than one failure.
It also means it's on their radar...very interesting. Can't help but wonder if they're looking for a way to get out of it or for another clue about this rash of failures.

If this was my turn at VW Jeopardy, I would have to take the camshaft for 800 Alex. HPFP failure will be the reason that the newer cars are being totaled out in a few years....:(
 

dzcad90

Rolex & gin
Joined
Mar 15, 1999
Location
Joliet, IL USA
TDI
Jetta - 97 (RIP), '03 (Sold), '09
kcfoxie said:
I am going to call it.

2009 HFPF = 2006 BRM Camshaft.

Pick thy poison.
I think this is a little premature here... Around 50K CBE engines sold, and still only a handful of failures with no root cause identified. We are WAY far off from calling this an epidemic yet.
 

Rod Bearing

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Location
Fort Worth
TDI
Several
The reality out in the world of Common Rail Diesels is, that this is a sporadic problem common to ALL brands.

I see one every so often on OTR rigs. I see it on Dodges. I see it on Ford. I can't recall the last time on a GM, they seem to be ok. I see it enough and on enough different kinds of CR systems, construction equipment included, that I know it's not just one pump manufacturer with issues.

That leads me to other areas of concern, first of which is US spec'd fuel left untreated, and fuel with suspended (emulsified) water in the fuel. The next area is in the OOB (out of box) new failure mode. (It happens) The next is fuel being put into a storage or transport tank with leftover chemicals or other fuels and being diluted with these other products, then pumped into a vehicle. Refineries try to be consistent but it isn't close to a repeatable product. Then theres the distribution terminals and all the contractor truckers with their pay by the load BS that makes truckers take a load of diesel one trip, gasoline the next, whatever the demand at the moment is.

It's amazing we don't see more failures..

The end of pipeline system of distribution to the stations in this country is hay-wired so bad it surprises me we ever get what we pull up to the pumps for. It's hosed and it's not carefully done.
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
Rod Bearing said:
Then theres the distribution terminals and all the contractor truckers with their pay by the load BS that makes truckers take a load of diesel one trip, gasoline the next, whatever the demand at the moment is.
FYI, tank trucks are compartmentalized for different products. Not that ther can't be errors, but they are not as common as you think. Pipeline interfaces are monitored and put in a separate tank at terminals. That material is sold to transmix refiners who are in the business to re-refine interface material. It's not a bad as everyone makes it to be.
 

Sella Turcica

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Location
USA
TDI
none anymore
The huge problem isn't that the HPFP implodes and such, the problem is that VW has been (allegedly) denying people warranty repairs on something that is obscenely bad and expensive, for a reason that (at least, we believe) is being refuted. VW's response to the problem, not the problem itself, is what worries me. I will be watching this situation unfold (in my BRM TDI with a camshaft that's probably wearing thin, haha).
 

Rod Bearing

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Location
Fort Worth
TDI
Several
aja8888 said:
FYI, tank trucks are compartmentalized for different products. Not that ther can't be errors, but they are not as common as you think. Pipeline interfaces are monitored and put in a separate tank at terminals. That material is sold to transmix refiners who are in the business to re-refine interface material. It's not a bad as everyone makes it to be.
I'm just going by what the drivers of these rigs have been telling me over the last 35 years while I'm working on their haulers. I also know how the tanks are made.

Underground storage tanks are notorious for getting contaminated with water due to leaky seals and careless delivery personnel in a hurry.

Then there's that random oops where a the delivery driver offloads to the wrong tank, catches it after a minute, and never tells a soul he put 300 gallons of unleaded in the diesel tank.

Then theres the stupid dealer lot boy Javier who can't read english who pumps a diesel full of gasoline, discovers his mistake, and the dealer then sucks the tank and puts it in another car, fills diesel back in, and that first fill up in your TDI (before you ever get it) with gasoline is history.

Mistakes are made all along the line, and dealers cover their tracks every time.
 

Hamman

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 4, 1999
Location
Warren, OH
TDI
No TDI's, but an '84 Rabbit diesel
Quote -"I do admit that once it happened to me, my level of worry went up. Not to the point of wanting to get rid of the car, but to the point that I think that fuel additives are an appropriate risk mitigation technique. Time will tell where the needle on the worry-o-meter will end up going."

Yup.... every time I come across these HPFP threads, I run out an put another 4 ounces of PS in my tank!
 

BnR

Active member
Joined
Dec 22, 2009
Location
Arnprior, Ontario
TDI
2010 Golf Highline manual
FWIW, I have a 2006 Jeep Liberty with a 2.8 litre 4 cylinder CR diesel. The engine was manufactured by VM Motori, an Italian outfit. I bought the Jeep in 05 while LSD was still in the process of being phased out. The dealership told me to use a fuel lubrcation additive as soon as ULSD was the only fuel option. The reason given - the fuel delivery system needed that extra lubrication and to disregard at my own peril. The other advice they gave was do the scheduled oil/filter changes religiously with only the best available spec synthetic.

Rob
 

Mach1

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Location
Spicewood, Tx.
TDI
05.5 Jetta 5 spd, 06 Jetta DE DSG, 04 F250 6L, 2000 F250 7.3L
And the plot thickens..

A HPP that failed and didn't trash the fuel system..This changes the whole game..


Failures on here only represent a part of the total failures..In reality..


The whole HPP story is not in yet..It is still to be determined..
 
Last edited:

birkie

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Location
Syracuse, NY
TDI
'13 jetta wagon, red
Sip'n Diesel said:
did you tell them that it's for the '98? :confused::eek:
No.. In fact, I did not even tell the person at the parts window that I owned a diesel car. I just asked for a bottle and got it.
 

Mach1

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Location
Spicewood, Tx.
TDI
05.5 Jetta 5 spd, 06 Jetta DE DSG, 04 F250 6L, 2000 F250 7.3L
Birkie, please keep us updated on your car, since you have one of the different failures then the normal HPP failures. Thanks, good luck with it.
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
DOUBLE BONUS? Details please!!!!

Lemmon law?
 

Claudio

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Location
IL
TDI
09 Jetta SW
i understand that VW try to blame it on the fuel but...do they have any proof of that?

Because they can play the contaminated fuel card only if they have the proof (lab test), else they must repair it under warranty.

Verba volant, scripta manent
 

birkie

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Location
Syracuse, NY
TDI
'13 jetta wagon, red
elester12 said:
My HPFP has failed twice now :(
Holy cow. This is in addition to your two turbo failures? :eek:

I too am curious about the circumstances - do I assume these HPFP failures were not blamed on fuel? Were they are on the same vehicle (i.e. did a replacement pump fail)? How many miles? Was it the same dealer that made all diagnoses?

Mach1 said:
Birkie, please keep us updated on your car, since you have one of the different failures then the normal HPP failures
Certainly. Sharing data is a huge benefit of this forum. So far so good, but that's not saying much with only 400 miles on the new pump
 

grek

Active member
Joined
May 7, 2009
Location
SoCal
TDI
2009 Jetta SportWagen
Just to play the 'Devil's Advocate' a bit, I couldn't help but notice that many of the HPFP problem cars are in the Virginia/West Virginia area. What's up with the fuel back there?.....
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
grek said:
Just to play the 'Devil's Advocate' a bit, I couldn't help but notice that many of the HPFP problem cars are in the Virginia/West Virginia area. What's up with the fuel back there?.....
Yea, its a West Virginia/Virginia thing if you throw out Ohio,Pennsylvania,New Hampshire,North Carolina,Texas and Florida.

Dweisel
 

Mach1

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Location
Spicewood, Tx.
TDI
05.5 Jetta 5 spd, 06 Jetta DE DSG, 04 F250 6L, 2000 F250 7.3L
I still say there is more to the story, we just keep uncovering more rocks.

We find something and say this is concrete, then someone else picks up another rock and uncovers more..

I am really glad to see the someone has had one replaced(I dont mean to jinx you birkie) and it didn't shell the whole fuel system,..I though there was something there. I still say some of them are the AFP failing and it looks like the HPP is the cause, so lets throw one at it...

But this is just my opinion about troubleshooting from the dealership..Oh well we wont know for sure yet..Things still to come.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Mach1 said:
I still say there is more to the story, we just keep uncovering more rocks.

We find something and say this is concrete, then someone else picks up another rock and uncovers more..

I am really glad to see the someone has had one replaced(I dont mean to jinx you birkie) and it didn't shell the whole fuel system,..I though there was something there. I still say some of them are the AFP failing and it looks like the HPP is the cause, so lets throw one at it...

But this is just my opinion about troubleshooting from the dealership..Oh well we wont know for sure yet..Things still to come.
If the entire fuel system was not replaced there is little chance that the second pump will survive. All contaminates have to be eliminated from the fuel system by replacing the entire fuel system. So,if a dealer mechanic or anyone else shortcuts the parts replacement process................the replacement pump is doomed.

Dweisel
 

Mach1

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Location
Spicewood, Tx.
TDI
05.5 Jetta 5 spd, 06 Jetta DE DSG, 04 F250 6L, 2000 F250 7.3L
We are going to put that theory to test..I didn't want to jiinx him...
 
Top