warm weather warm TDI engine hard starting

wpeets

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
Chateaugay NY 12920
TDI
2014 TDI Wagen Hers
Posted Dec.11 and have tried all suggestions with no luck. Starts immediatly in cooler weather. Have a grey 109. I park in garage on weekends about 45 F. Starts very hard but never fails. Leave outside much cooler and starts immediatly. Maybe some new suggestions. Do not suggest trading, dealers don't give much for TDI's with 101,000. Where would I hide if I sold it to an individual. Runs like a new one. How quick should a TDI start. Maybe I am expecting to much. Dealer feels there is something wrong but clame they cannot detect. TDIfriday seems to have the same problem but no email address would like to hear from TDI. If any one else has this same problem please help. Left NY drove 300 miles early Wednesday morning shut the engine off tried to start, it did start but turned over several times. I would say excessive. Started immediatly that afternoon, quite cold out in CT.
 

MOGolf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 27, 2001
Location
underneath something
TDI
2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
Please refresh us on what suggestions you have tried.
 

wpeets

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
Chateaugay NY 12920
TDI
2014 TDI Wagen Hers
I brought the car to the dealer I am not very talanted when working on a TDI. I change the oil and filter. Left it there for four days, They said they did every possible check. Checked timing belt and timing, compression, anti-shudder valve, coolant sensor, injector pump, and who knows what else. Just wondering if I am the only one in the USA with this problem. Also would like to know how long is excessive cranking when starting a warm engine.
 

wpeets

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
Chateaugay NY 12920
TDI
2014 TDI Wagen Hers
Excessive cranking, probably 8 to 10 seconds, starter sometimes starts to slow down. Battery was checked OK. Second battery 99 TDI. IT was like winter in CT this morning maybe 18 to 20 Degrees F. Started immediatly. Drove 24 miles to work restarted after a few minutes to move vehicle for snow removal, probably 5 to 8 seconds cranking. Seems to start better with excellerator down.If I can rememder. I believe the car use to start immediatly for about the first 55,000 when warm. Can't believe I am the only one with this problem although thats what the dealer and VW tells me.
 

MOGolf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 27, 2001
Location
underneath something
TDI
2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE

MOGolf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 27, 2001
Location
underneath something
TDI
2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
Have they checked the amperage draw of the starter when cranking hot? Is it within spec?

Other possibilities (not in any particular order): injection timing (we've known a few shops to not get this right), coolant temp sensor (G62), engine speed sensor (G28), fuel cut-off valve (N109), cold start injector (G81).
 

DieselDrinker

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 25, 2001
Location
Southern Calfornia(but from WOB, Germany)
TDI
TurboDiesel16
i´m not a mechanic, but i know that pumping the gaspedal will do nothing, so it is just your imagination, maybe you feel you are helping it or something, maybe the injectors are injecting too much fuel and it has to clear it out, actually what i know to do to flooded cars, at least with gasoline fuel injected is push the gaspedal all the way to the floor and hold it and then crank it so it puts no more dieselfuel into the cylinder. Notice: is there smoke coming out of the muffler as you are cranking it? if so that means it is burning excess dieselfuel, and therefore flooded! It is giving it as much dieselfuel as it would if it was cold, and you know that it does not need as much when it is warm, of course. Maybe there is something wrong with the injectors??? hmmm try my idea, crank it for a few second, push the gaspedal all the way down and hold it while cranking, good luck! PS: my mother´s 2001 Volvo S60 T5 does also not like to start sometimes in the very hot, and if you do this it starts right away!

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: DieselDrinker ]</p>
 

Army_Steve

Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2001
Location
Borden, Ontario, Canada
TDI
Jetta 2003, Dark blue
Guys,

I think that I may have found a partial fix to this problem. When I stop the car, I wait for four seconds before taking out the key from the ignition. During this time, I hear three sounds coming from the dash and the engine. Two sounds are electrical switches and one is (I believe)the change over valve going back to open position. I've been trying this for the last week and my success rate for warm start is 95%.

I will keep trying this method and if it keeps being successfull, I will discuss with the dealership.
 

wpeets

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
Chateaugay NY 12920
TDI
2014 TDI Wagen Hers
MIGOLF: Thanks for the info. Checked that thread out and it looks promising going to e-mail and see if anyone has found the problem. Guess I'am not a mechanic throwing all those numbers at me kind of scarey, may have to go back to dealer and pay the price.

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: wpeets ]</p>
 

wpeets

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
Chateaugay NY 12920
TDI
2014 TDI Wagen Hers
Diesel Drinker & Steve Thanks for the info will try both suggetions. Do not hear to well so do not hear any thing after turning off key but will certainly wait a few seconds before removing key. Diesel Drinker I don't pump the peddle just hold it down after cranking for a while. Probably was going to start any way. Imagination is probably very correct. Went out to car and looked for gas pedal couldn't find it in my TDI I did find a diesel pedal, Just kidding really appreciate all the support I have received. Just had to put in that little dig couldn't pass it up. New to this club but think it is the greatest. Try to read everything. By the way I am not the best at spelling is there a spell check and if so how do I access it.
 

DieselDrinker

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 25, 2001
Location
Southern Calfornia(but from WOB, Germany)
TDI
TurboDiesel16
well, just so you know, i proved me theorie on the pedal pushing thing, i went to test drive a new beetle TDI yesterday evening and the dealer who was very stupid, turned the key right to on without letting the glow plug come on at all, and it was very cold last night(for so cali anyways) and it cranked and cranked and cranked, so i asked him if he minds if i try it, so i let the glow plug light come on and tried it, still cranking away and nothing, so i pushed the pedal to the floor and cranked....... started within 4 cranks. I know this now for a fact, that depressing the pedal to the floor and holding it there with the key to on, then cranking while continuing to hold it tells motronic to not deliver any more "primer" diesel fuel to the cylinder, therefore clearing the flood..... coincidentally, upon starting it there was black smoke to come out the back muffler(and yes i know it´s a diesel pedal, forgive me for my horrid english) but this *does* work, good luck! oh, and turn the key to on, then press it to the floor as hard as you can, and crank, try that, it really does work, but make sure you hold it in, pushing it down while cranking does nothing, you have to press it before!
 

wpeets

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
Chateaugay NY 12920
TDI
2014 TDI Wagen Hers
Hey Diesel Drinker at this point in time I'am willing to try any suggestions. Will try. Push the peddle first, all the way, thanks
 

HowardZ

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 5, 1999
Location
m
Skypup and some others have reported that changing the battery solves this problem.
 

wpeets

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
Chateaugay NY 12920
TDI
2014 TDI Wagen Hers
Going to change battery this weekend if I can find one. Stopped by K Mart last night they had 850 cranking power but had enough dust on them to be a fiew years old. Looking for a place that fills them when purchased. This way I would be getting a new one. Will try the farm supply equipment dealer, get batteries for my toys there,never had a problem. Picked up a 1100 cranking power for my John Deere a couple of years ago to replace the NAPA one that never had enough power.
 

wpeets

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
Chateaugay NY 12920
TDI
2014 TDI Wagen Hers
Installed 850 cc battery helped a little but did not solve the problem. I'm giving up for a while. Will bring it back to the dealer. Ouch need to save all my change for that trip.
 

TDIfriday

Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2001
Location
Austin, Texas
After changing out the old 109 relay I left for the west coast three days before Christmas. It was a 4,500 mile round trip, so I had lots of time and distance for a road test. Most of the trip was highway driving in cool weather. Not once did the engine stall while driving in town or on the highways. In fact, the only places where this hard start was a problem was close to my home and in southern Arizona -- both are places where the temperature was around 70F at the time of the warm start. While on this trip I did, however, notice that my temperature gauge behaved (and continues to) somewhat differently than before this problem started. Specifically, after driving for some time, then letting the car sit until the needle is in the cold zone and then starting again (and seeing no difficulty in starting), I notice that once out of the cold zone the needle very rapidly moves to the usual position (190). This never happened before the hard warm-start condition appeared. One more thing, I took my Jetta into the dealership where my father resides for an oil change and mentioned this problem to them. To my amazement, the service advisor's reply was to instantly blame the reformulated GASOLINE currently being sold in the state as the probable culprit. I immediately cast a quizzical look at the technician who just happened to be there too. He immedately pointed out to his colleague that my car was a diesel and then told me not to worry, that he had in fact refilled the correct synthetic motor oil. What a scare.
 

wpeets

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
Chateaugay NY 12920
TDI
2014 TDI Wagen Hers
Dropped the TDI off to the dealer yesterday, they were able to recreate the warm start problem. No charge. They feel it may be injector pump timing. Going to give them another chance. They have checked the timing before or so they say. Will do this Wednesday. If it is not fixed I want my money back. Wish me luck will let you know.
 

Boundless

BANNED
Joined
Jan 3, 2001
wpeets,

There are about 5 or 6 folks at Fred's presently having warm start problems. Unfortunately, they too changed batteries to no avail. So we now know it's not the battery.

Given the frequency of the situation and other symptoms, check the fuel cut off valve, if you are so inclined. I'm suspecting that the plunger of the fuel cut-off function may be getting fouled and very difficult for the solenoid to open. Under warm conditions because things expand when warm, causing the plunger or other part to bind, and the solenoid does not have the strength to pull the plunger when it gets stuck.

If the car is at the dealer, perhaps you might want to call and have them check it out. This is pretty simple. Even if it is okay, the cut-off valve will then be definitively eliminated and you can focus on other potential causes. Tell them you actually want them to take the solenoid off and inspect the plunger. The solenoid can probably still "click" if the plunger is stuck in the closed position. The "click" only indicates the solenoid is functional, not an assurance the plunger is moving properly, opening the fuel flow.

There is a bunch of these warm start problems going on, keep us posted please...

Good luck
 

Boundless

BANNED
Joined
Jan 3, 2001
Hey folks, check out this thread:

Hard Start @45 F recent developments

There's some interesting things going on there that may be helpful here.
 

TDIfriday

Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2001
Location
Austin, Texas
My battery died last night. I replaced it today and drove it all over town this balmy evening. So far no warm start problems -- I hope this fixes it.
 

TDIfriday

Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2001
Location
Austin, Texas
My battery died last night. I replaced it today and drove it all over town this balmy evening. So far no warm start problems -- I hope this fixes it.
 
Top