Looking forward to hearing about your experience!
Cyclonic action CCV Air/Oil separator fabrication
- Thread starter josh8loop
- Start date
deejaaa
Veteran Member
got this in today:
deejaaa
Veteran Member
K&N's are not used because of the oil and sensor. i wouldn't do it.
here is the Cyclone.
will get parts together and try to run it this Wed or Thu.
here is the Cyclone.
will get parts together and try to run it this Wed or Thu.
deejaaa
Veteran Member
installed the cyclone this afternoon. used clear poly that was on hand. drain is a foot of tubing and just crimped until i get a catch jar hooked up. no pics but looks almost like josh8loop's.
will pull IC either WE or Th to tap for line. need 1 elbow to replace the puck. have fittings and clear line already.
can't wait to get the IC tapped.
will pull IC either WE or Th to tap for line. need 1 elbow to replace the puck. have fittings and clear line already.
can't wait to get the IC tapped.
AndyBees
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- May 27, 2003
- Location
- Southeast Kentucky
- TDI
- Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Sorry for this late response...........
1. Those knowledgeable of Turbos will tell you that their seals do not seal 100%. In fact, the two seals (exhaust side and intake side) are nothing more than metal expansion rings with a gap (no rubber seals). However, exhaust pressure helps reduce oil loss on that side. And, likewise, air pressure helps reduce oil loss on that side of the turbo. So, from idling to high RPMs (throughout the range) some oil will go by the seals. These engines have over 70 psi oil pressure at idle with cold oil. At 60 to 70 MPH, with RPMs at 2000 to 2300, oil pressure is in the high 30s psi to low 40s psi with engine at full operating temp. Thus, the Turbo air pressure is far less than oil pressure ............. now go figure.
2. I have an E-vac Scavenger system on the ALH engine in my Vanagon which pulls crankcase blow by fumes/oil vapor into the exhaust system. So, with that system, 100% of all blow-by fumes/oil vapor does not go through the Intake System. But, via the turbo, my Intake System still shows oil, which based on the above rationale, comes from the Turbo. The engine runs awesomely great at 174k miles. It takes about 1/2 quart of oil to keep it full between 10k mile oil changes. Also, the ALH engine in the Vanagon has a mild Stage 1 Malone tune. I only had to add 1 quart of oil pulling a camper almost 11k miles to Alaska and back last summer (2014).
Lastly, I've done a lot of MKIV TB changes and yet to find a "DRY" Intake system. Unless the Turbo is removed and trash canned and the CCV system re-routed, there will always be oil in the Intake System.
So, I stand by my statement......
Below, in the pic you can see the stainless braid hose that connects to the E-vac Scavenger (post CAT pic below).
Below, CAT on the right and glaspack muffler to the left (exhaust flow is from right to left).
Below, looking up stream in the exhaust system..
I've been running the E-vac Scavenger over 44k miles with no issues at all. But, as stated above, the Turbo does dump some oil into the Intake System..............
KLXD
Top Post Dawg
Simple. Add another more bigger cyclonic seperator to the intake system.
deejaaa
Veteran Member
here's what i got so far.
picked up 2, only used 1.
1 of these:
what i ran for the week:
before trimming:
i know i over-complicated the drain but seemed like a good idea at the time:
removed end of drain piece:
picked up 2, only used 1.
1 of these:
what i ran for the week:
before trimming:
i know i over-complicated the drain but seemed like a good idea at the time:
removed end of drain piece:
deejaaa
Veteran Member
into quick-connect:
only size i found and a smaller size would have been ideal so the 45° needs trimming:
after final trimming:
what i ended with today:
used 3/4 hose, copper filler with 1" sleeve. like i said, bigger isn't always better:
will try to drain/tap IC/45° tomorrow. have an appointment in the morning so hoping to have time afterwards to get that done.
also will look for a glass jar with metal lid. think it will hold up better than the peanut butter jar.
only size i found and a smaller size would have been ideal so the 45° needs trimming:
after final trimming:
what i ended with today:
used 3/4 hose, copper filler with 1" sleeve. like i said, bigger isn't always better:
will try to drain/tap IC/45° tomorrow. have an appointment in the morning so hoping to have time afterwards to get that done.
also will look for a glass jar with metal lid. think it will hold up better than the peanut butter jar.
Last edited:
RIP TDI
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2000
- Location
- Santa Barbara, CA
- TDI
- '15 GSW SE 6MT...... '01 Golf GLS 5MT.... '96 Passat Variant....
You realize that the OE hockey puck is actually a pressure regulator, right?
It has a spring-loaded diaphram inside that prevents a runaway in the event of a severe restriction in the intake tract upstream of the CCV entry point. Since this is such an unlikely possibility (i.e., a plugged air filter/snow screen), it shouldn't be a problem to eliminate it since you're on top of air filter/snow screen maintenance, but I just wanted to make sure you understood the issue.
It has a spring-loaded diaphram inside that prevents a runaway in the event of a severe restriction in the intake tract upstream of the CCV entry point. Since this is such an unlikely possibility (i.e., a plugged air filter/snow screen), it shouldn't be a problem to eliminate it since you're on top of air filter/snow screen maintenance, but I just wanted to make sure you understood the issue.
deejaaa
Veteran Member
boy was it hot out there today!
drilled/tapped IC:
for this:
drilled/tapped IC:
for this:
deejaaa
Veteran Member
surprisingly no oil came out.
for the 45 :
the route i took:
stinky baby food jar:
think it's done.
for the 45 :
the route i took:
stinky baby food jar:
think it's done.
deejaaa
Veteran Member
surprisingly no oil came out.
for the 45°:
the route i took:
stinky baby food jar:
think it's done.
for the 45°:
the route i took:
stinky baby food jar:
think it's done.
deejaaa
Veteran Member
here's what I had after 120 miles:
KLXD
Top Post Dawg
Why not plumb that back to the pan and make it maintenance free?
deejaaa
Veteran Member
been discussed already and there's controversy. moisture introduced to crankcase. pressure from crankcase won't alloy it to drain.
I could just pour it back in there but the thought of it makes me uneasy. not any proof there's not a higher number of contaminants in it.
I figure it would be lost through consumption so it doesn't matter.
I could just pour it back in there but the thought of it makes me uneasy. not any proof there's not a higher number of contaminants in it.
I figure it would be lost through consumption so it doesn't matter.
vwmk4
Veteran Member
Thanks DEEJAAA, answered my question. Do I really need a catch can? Sure do.
lirunaway
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
- Location
- Mooresville, NC
- TDI
- 2006 VW Golf TDI, Model Year:2006 Code:6 MFG:07/05 Vin:9BWGR61J364004114 Sales Model:9B1 538 Description:1.9 TDI High 100 Engine:BEW Type:TD CCM:1896 KW:74 Description:Pumpe-D... Transmission:GPC Type:A Number:09AH GVWR:4097 Front:2269 Rear:1850
I kinda did along time ago. I don't remember where I got the info, but it said you need a check valve in the line going back to the crankcase. I installed it with a tee in my dipstick, but don't do that. The drain needs to go below the oil level. I haven't found anything to explain why, but that's what it said.
I now have another engine for another reason I won't get into here. The engine I have now has a different oil pan with a black plastic removable access cover on the bottom. I'm tempted to remove it, drill it, tap it and install the drain back there. But, if that breaks I'll lose all my oil. Big risk.
Here’s a link to the BMW oil seperator mentioned in an earlier post for $10.97 and FREE SHIPPING. I ordered one and got it just as advertised last week.
www.ebay.com/itm/New-BMW-E53-X5-Oil-Separator-11151705237-/281577540268?hash=item418f544aac&vxp=mtr
www.ebay.com/itm/New-BMW-E53-X5-Oil-Separator-11151705237-/281577540268?hash=item418f544aac&vxp=mtr
From post #129
Chris: I for one did not realize this and am glad you posted it. I thought it was just a labyrinth and drain back for the oil (Anyone got any pics of one opened up?). If/when I deal with this I will strongly consider leaving the hockey puck in place and add whatever I do down stream from there. As you say, if you are up on your maintenance it shouldn't be an issue but I still think leaving it there is a REALLY good idea....say a snow drift across the intake, etc. It can happen in just a few minutes!
RIP TDI
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2000
- Location
- Santa Barbara, CA
- TDI
- '15 GSW SE 6MT...... '01 Golf GLS 5MT.... '96 Passat Variant....
deejaaa
Veteran Member
Thanks for the pics and the efforts guys, pretty clear now.
Quote: "if you do as posted, there will be no way to use the puck."
DeeJaaa: In post 131 you left the puck in place and added the cyclone separator. Is there a reason you then removed the puck other than needing to tap into the ell in the valve cover for the IC line? I was think of running the IC line into a tee in the line between the puck and cyclone, and keeping the puck for the runaway issue.
Quote: "if you do as posted, there will be no way to use the puck."
DeeJaaa: In post 131 you left the puck in place and added the cyclone separator. Is there a reason you then removed the puck other than needing to tap into the ell in the valve cover for the IC line? I was think of running the IC line into a tee in the line between the puck and cyclone, and keeping the puck for the runaway issue.
Last edited:
deejaaa
Veteran Member
you are correct. puck will take some trying. do you tap above diaphragm, or below? i don't know. post 131 was before i had the IC tapped.
i always thought the ASV was there to prevent runaway.
i drained the same amount last week but 2 days ago had only a few drops. the oil smells so strong i wouldn't think about pouring it back in.
AndyBees
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- May 27, 2003
- Location
- Southeast Kentucky
- TDI
- Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
The reason you never "struck" oil when you drilled into the Inter Cooler is because you were drilling in the wrong location. In the oil well drilling business, they'd call that a dry hole
.Unless I do not understand the location of your photo, oil doesn't settle out and/or accumulate in that area of the Inter Cooler. Although there is some oil moving along in suspension in the boost air pressure as the engine is running, it does settle in the bottom of the Inter Cooler. And, considering the tubes inside the Inter Cooler are basically up and down (perpendicular to the ground), when the engine is shut down, the oil drains to the bottom of the IC............... lowest point.
Also, if I understand your set-up, it appears there is a "constant" flow of boost pressure going thru and over to the separator from the Inter Cooler nipple fitting where you drilled the hole. And, sure, considering there is a constant air flow some oil will end up in the catch can. Further, your set-up is adding to the blow-by pressure in the CCV system.
The set-up needs a solenoid operated shut-off/on valve which can be periodically operated. Something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/281650447829?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Lastly, as I stated above, unless I've missed something in your set-up, I stand corrected!
EDIT: The diaphragm inside the CCV Punk is not the ASV (Anti Shudder Valve)...... again, unless I've misunderstood the narrative and all the posted quotes.
Last edited:
RIP TDI
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2000
- Location
- Santa Barbara, CA
- TDI
- '15 GSW SE 6MT...... '01 Golf GLS 5MT.... '96 Passat Variant....
Correct, with this arrangement the crankcase will be pressurized under boost and you will loose some boost pressure out the separator drain. Its a bridge too far. No need for a shutoff valve, just lose this part of your system.
Also note how short and direct the OE CCV path is, how close the elbow hose runs to the valve cover, and the fact that the entire tract is covered by the top shroud. That's all intentional; it preserves the heat of the blowby gasses which minimizes the chance of icing of the water vapor in the gasses with resultant plugging of the system in really cold climates. Even with those design elements, a CCV heater was still specified. Your long, distant CCV path will allow the gasses to run cooler. This obviously won't be a problem in Baytown, but keep it in mind if traveling way up North.
Lose the IC recycle circuit, keep everything else (including your valve cover elbow, if you want), and you'll be golden.
Last edited:
I was think of just putting a tee in the hose that goes between the puck and the cyclone and no taping into the puck? I guess taping it in anywhere in that hose, the cyclone separator, or the collection jar would be ok?
Last edited:
AndyBees
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- May 27, 2003
- Location
- Southeast Kentucky
- TDI
- Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
I'm a little uncertain as to what you are trying to communicate. But, I'll say this:
1. The whole idea of a CCV is to relieve crankcase pressure, not increase it.
2. The intent of the separator is to reduce the amount of oil in the Turbo charge path to the Inter Cooler and on to the EGR/Intake/Cylinder head.
3. So, why not install the drain access in the lowest point of the Inter Cooler?
4. The oil accumulation in the bottom of the Inter Cooler would only need to be purged periodically, not constantly.
5. Icing of the system would be the least of my worries, although the OE system is designed to deal with that.
So, in reference to the hole drilled in the Inter Cooler ............. it is in the wrong place. There will still be oil accumulation in the bottom of the IC whether it comes from the CCV or the Turbo bearings. Thus, as set-up, I see very little benefit.
As you may have seen in my E-vac System (Post #129), there is a vacuum created on the CCV puck, with no back pressure. Of course, that system is extremely easy to set-up with the ALH engine in a Vanagon. It would not be an easy installation in a car. The E-vac unit would have to be located post muffler to avoid back-pressure......... been there and dealt with it. A properly installed E-vac system will generate "vacuum" under all conditions. And, it is not an experimental concept as it has been in use with race engines for years.
Point is:
1. No add-on system should increase pressure in the crankcase (the seals won't like it, and the clutch will let you know when it gets oiled from a blown crankshaft seal)
2. No system should leave oil in the bottom of the Inter Cooler if the intent was to remove it.
3. As I have proven, and is a well known phenomenon, oil gets into the charge system from two sources, the CCV system and the oil seal on the Impeller side of the Turbo.
So, why design an add-on system that adds crankcase pressure and does not eliminate/reduce oil from the Turbo seal source when that was the intent.
Otherwise, I like what I've seen and give thanks to Josh8loop for starting this Thread and sharing his ideas and experiences as well as all who have contributed.
RIP TDI
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2000
- Location
- Santa Barbara, CA
- TDI
- '15 GSW SE 6MT...... '01 Golf GLS 5MT.... '96 Passat Variant....
It interesting to note that companies that make the best aftermarket fully-engineered CCV filter systems (Mann Provent and Racor) have not attempted to tackle a dedicated intake tract filter system let alone a combined CCV/intake tract filter system.I'm a little uncertain as to what you are trying to communicate. But, I'll say this:
1. The whole idea of a CCV is to relieve crankcase pressure, not increase it.
I think we're saying pretty much the same thing; you said "Further, your set-up is adding to the blow-by pressure in the CCV system". True and since boost pressure is greater than blowby pressure at the valve cover fitting, boost pressure is also re-entering the valve cover through the fitting, thus pressurizing the crankcase, as well as the CCV system downstream of the fitting.
2. The intent of the separator is to reduce the amount of oil in the Turbo charge path to the Inter Cooler and on to the EGR/Intake/Cylinder head. In this case, that was the intent but the intent of a CCV separator or filter in every production and aftermarket turbo application that I'm aware of is to coalesce oil in the blowby gasses only, not the intake tract. The connection between intake tract and crankcase (via the CCV) should only occur upstream of the turbo, never downstream of it. Why? Because of Point #1.
3. So, why not install the drain access in the lowest point of the Inter Cooler? Yes.
4. The oil accumulation in the bottom of the Inter Cooler would only need to be purged periodically, not constantly. Yes, purged manually with a drain plug.
5. Icing of the system would be the least of my worries, although the OE system is designed to deal with that. Agreed.
So, in reference to the hole drilled in the Inter Cooler ............. it is in the wrong place. There will still be oil accumulation in the bottom of the IC whether it comes from the CCV or the Turbo bearings. Thus, as set-up, I see very little benefit.
As you may have seen in my E-vac System (Post #129), there is a vacuum created on the CCV puck, with no back pressure. Of course, that system is extremely easy to set-up with the ALH engine in a Vanagon. It would not be an easy installation in a car. The E-vac unit would have to be located post muffler to avoid back-pressure......... been there and dealt with it. A properly installed E-vac system will generate "vacuum" under all conditions. And, it is not an experimental concept as it has been in use with race engines for years.
Point is:
1. No add-on system should increase pressure in the crankcase (the seals won't like it, and the clutch will let you know when it gets oiled from a blown crankshaft seal)
2. No system should leave oil in the bottom of the Inter Cooler if the intent was to remove it.
3. As I have proven, and is a well known phenomenon, oil gets into the charge system from two sources, the CCV system and the oil seal on the Impeller side of the Turbo.
So, why design an add-on system that adds crankcase pressure and does not eliminate/reduce oil from the Turbo seal source when that was the intent.
Otherwise, I like what I've seen and give thanks to Josh8loop for starting this Thread and sharing his ideas and experiences as well as all who have contributed.
deejaaa
Veteran Member
i had a hard time trying to figure why you said it was pressurizing the crank case. i read Chris Bell's comment and i snapped into reality.
i can measure the pressure before the "L" when i get back into town. i can branch off of the tubing to see how much IC pressure is being directed to the "L". not sure if i can measure the pressure going to the valve cover without raising the "L's" height and skewing with results.
sometimes when i do something, i overlook the obvious, such as placement of IC drain. i can correct that when i get a chance.
i don't want to use the evac system right now, i like this one so far. will the evac system remove IC oil?
Last edited: