2006 Golf TDI, crank but no start.

Fahrvergdiesel

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2006
Location
Bahama, NC
TDI
'06 Golf
Guys,

It went down like this:


  1. Start up, drive 12 miles to the store and shut down.
  2. Finish shopping 30 minutes later, come out and car cranks but no fire.
  3. Wait 30 - 45 minutes and try again and it starts right up.
  4. Had car towed home (in case it died on the road) and again, it started right up at home.
Testing I've done:

  1. Running voltage check at battery - 13.3 to 13.5 (seems low-ish to me)
  2. Stopped voltage check at battery - 11.8 to 12.0 (again, seems low-ish)
  3. Pulled codes - a couple related to ECU/TCU communication. May have been stored as there was no CEL at the time of the failure.
Other things:

  1. Battery is original (I think)
  2. Alternator run out pulley has been replaced but I still think I hear a strange whirring sound from that area of the engine.
  3. I plan on checking the fuses and connections under the battery cover this evening.
  4. Fuel pump assembly changed out a couple years ago. Not a lot of miles since.
Thoughts?


Thanks!
 

super1

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Location
NY
TDI
none
Crankshaft Sensor ?
Possible Fuel Pump ?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
Dying alternator. Not putting out enough volts to keep your battery charged. 12.0 is about dead, but the battery may be ok if fully charged and you put a good quality Bosch alternator in your car to keep it charged.
 

pdtdiarl

Well-known member
Joined
May 8, 2018
Location
EU
TDI
golf4
Warm engine and week battery is hard to start due to the ECU start map.
Starter + battery has to do more than 250rpms so that the ECU starts delivering fuel.

13.3 to 13.5 is too low. Your alternator (or pulley) is dead.
 

Fahrvergdiesel

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2006
Location
Bahama, NC
TDI
'06 Golf
Thanks for the replies. The specific information is really helpful!

I did replace the alternator pulley a couple years ago and when it failed, it was really making some obvious mechanical failure sounds.

This time, it's not really noisy however, this car spends a lot of time idling and at low speeds so I'm assuming that kind of running is hard on the pulley because of the low frequency pulsations from the power strokes.
 

Fahrvergdiesel

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2006
Location
Bahama, NC
TDI
'06 Golf
Update on this:

I was checking the car this evening after spending a couple hours with Google and reading related threads here.

I opened the fuse strip box and took measurements at each fuse position. I was reading about 11.8v at the battery but only about 2.6v at the wire leading to the alternator. I also took a reading at the alternator output stud and again, read about 2.6v.

I shut the car off and pulled each fuse strip off and brushed the terminals all other contact areas clean with a stainless wire brush. Then, I put it all back together and started the car. I immediately knew something was different because I could hear the alternator loaded down, unlike it had been before. This time, the voltage reading across the battery terminals was a healthier 14.37v. I also tried some load tests - lights, defogger, fan, etc and with each load, the voltage dipped but came right back to the same 14.3 to 14.4v.

So, not saying it's completely cured but it's working much better. I suppose that the alternator needs some amount of feedback voltage from the battery for it to output a charge. The feedback voltage must have been intermittent enough so that it was not charging full time and the battery got weak enough so that it wouldn't spin the engine fast enough for a proper warm start.

I'll continue to monitor voltage for a while to make sure everything is kosher.

Thanks for the again for the help!
 

super1

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Location
NY
TDI
none
Glad it’s working so far
Keep us posted
I will get your battery checked out


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

ToxicDoc

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Location
Virginia, US
TDI
2001 Jetta, S7, .216
You have improved your charging which is good, but that battery is about dead. Get a new one before you get stranded again.
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
I opened the fuse strip box and took measurements at each fuse position. I was reading about 11.8v at the battery but only about 2.6v at the wire leading to the alternator. I also took a reading at the alternator output stud and again, read about 2.6v.
The fuse for the alternator had a bad connection. When you cleaned it, it had a good connection and the alternator was able to deliver the power to the battery.

You should have charged the battery at that point. The alternator will be working harder to try to fully charge the battery then normal. With the old battery it makes it harder on the alternator.

Last, measure for AC voltage at the battery.
If it's high the alternator may have bad diodes.
 

JB05

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Location
Il.USA
TDI
Golf,2005,anthracite blue
Try taking some voltage drop tests; between -batt. post and alt. case; and batt+ to alt. output.
 

Fahrvergdiesel

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2006
Location
Bahama, NC
TDI
'06 Golf
Latest testing and results:


  1. Car has been off the road for a few days now and when I went out to start it, if fired right up with no problems.
  2. Voltage reading at the battery with the engine off is 12.61v.
  3. Tested for voltage drop in the wiring and it's minimal - no more than .2v.
  4. I put a battery charger on for 90 minutes (14.6v), then waited for about 30 minutes before testing again and the voltage at the battery was around 12.7v.
So, is that low for a resting battery? Date code indicates it was replaced in late 2013.


Thanks again.
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Voltage is good and it seems you're right on the path to repair. But battery voltage testing is not a comprehensive test. A worn out battery in good condition can show those volts. You might have it load tested or if you have a hydrometer and trickle charger, you can do it at home. But it interweb sounds like your battery is O.K.
 

ToxicDoc

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Location
Virginia, US
TDI
2001 Jetta, S7, .216
it's a 5-year old battery that starting discharging. it'll need load testing unless he wants to get stuck at an inopportune moment.
 

irvingj

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2006
Location
Etna,NH
TDI
2005 Jetta Wagon TDI (PD/BEW)
It's not my TDI, but my 2007 Massey-Ferguson GC2310 sub-compact tractor still has its original battery... (Iseki 3-cyl 1100cc diesel) -I know, I can't believe it either, but it still starts the tractor just fine! (OTOH, I replaced my 2005 Jetta's battery in 2013....)
 

ToxicDoc

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Location
Virginia, US
TDI
2001 Jetta, S7, .216
If lithium production ever gets cheap enough, you might see more lithium-iron batteries. Those are much more robust.
 

Fahrvergdiesel

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2006
Location
Bahama, NC
TDI
'06 Golf
Following back up on this.


Just for good measure, I bought a new battery, even though the old one load tested good and was maintaining a solid 12.7v at rest after charging and cool down period.


Car lasted about 4 months of random driving without a problem and bam, it failed to start again. So here's a summary of all the details I've gathered so far:

  • Problem always happens (randomly) after driving less than an hour, shutting down then coming back and attempting to start again within about 30 - 45 minutes.
  • Waiting another 30 + minutes before another attempt to re-start often results in the car starting back up and running fine/able to drive home with no problems.
  • The engine has never died while driving and runs/drives/shifts perfectly.
  • Charging system is putting out full voltage.
  • All charging cable connections are clean and dry.
  • A quick scan reveals codes: P2637 and P0725 stored.
So, P2637 could be:

  • Torque management feedback signal A (whatever that means)
P0725 is:

  • TCM not receiving engine speed signal from ECM
So, is this pointing to a faulty crank/cam sensor? Heat sensitive?


I have a VAG tool from Ross-Tech but so far, all I've done with it is change some parameters, I haven't used it for scanning. I'll plug it back in and try a few things to see if it brings anything up.


Anyone have any other ideas?


Thanks.
 

JB05

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Location
Il.USA
TDI
Golf,2005,anthracite blue
When I had a faulty crank sensor I did get a DTC for the TCU as well. The attached cable had become brittle and I too was having stalling problems. Wiggling the cable would get the car started. IIRC the ECU had the same DTC.
 

Fahrvergdiesel

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2006
Location
Bahama, NC
TDI
'06 Golf
When I had a faulty crank sensor I did get a DTC for the TCU as well. The attached cable had become brittle and I too was having stalling problems. Wiggling the cable would get the car started. IIRC the ECU had the same DTC.

Whereabouts is this cable located?
 

JB05

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Location
Il.USA
TDI
Golf,2005,anthracite blue
Directly in front. It has a light gray harness, and the sensor is behind the oil filter.
The cam sensor harness is black and is just below the gray one. The vacuum bulb is next to them.
 

k_pt

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2017
Location
pt
TDI
VW MKIV TDI
Latest testing and results:


  1. Car has been off the road for a few days now and when I went out to start it, if fired right up with no problems.
  2. Voltage reading at the battery with the engine off is 12.61v.
  3. Tested for voltage drop in the wiring and it's minimal - no more than .2v.
  4. I put a battery charger on for 90 minutes (14.6v), then waited for about 30 minutes before testing again and the voltage at the battery was around 12.7v.
So, is that low for a resting battery? Date code indicates it was replaced in late 2013.


Thanks again.
Ok, I have to answer this.

"Car has been off the road for a few days now and when I went out to start it, if fired right up with no problems" - no battery drain obviously.

Why searching for voltage drop?
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
Why searching for voltage drop?
A voltage drop test is measuring the voltage the length of 1 wire.

For a ground test you could measure from the negative post (not the clamp) of the battery with 1 probe and to the transmission case (the aluminum) and have someone crank the car.

I would not want to see more then a few tenths of a volt.

Same going to the body of the car.

BTW. If the battery ground wire under the battery case is bad anything that grounds to the body of the car is bad.
 

~TDIguy~

Veteran Member
Joined
May 4, 2017
Location
Romulus Ny
TDI
2005 Jetta Sedan
Im beginning to wonder if you have just a battery problem or if theres more than that.

When the car cranks but doesnt start, is it a normal speed of cranking or does it barely turn over and act like a dead battery? If you have good battery voltage and clean connections, it seems unlikely that the car would intermittently not start. If it cranks fine but doesnt start theres another issue......
 

Fahrvergdiesel

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2006
Location
Bahama, NC
TDI
'06 Golf
Ok, I have to answer this.

"Car has been off the road for a few days now and when I went out to start it, if fired right up with no problems" - no battery drain obviously.

Why searching for voltage drop?

During testing, I was looking for anything out of spec, like voltage at the battery, if the system was charging, etc...


I found that the feedback voltage to the alternator from the battery was very low causing the regulator to not put out power. I found this measuring a big voltage drop on the wire running from the battery to the alternator power post and fixed it by cleaning up the fusible links in the box on top of the battery.


As of this time, battery is brand new, charging circuit works perfectly and the cranking speed is plenty fast.
 

~TDIguy~

Veteran Member
Joined
May 4, 2017
Location
Romulus Ny
TDI
2005 Jetta Sedan
Glad you figured it out. My fuse box on top of the battery went down the drain a year ago or so, but the charging was just getting weak in that case, to cause an occasional no start. A new box fixed the issue.
 

Fahrvergdiesel

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2006
Location
Bahama, NC
TDI
'06 Golf
Glad you figured it out. My fuse box on top of the battery went down the drain a year ago or so, but the charging was just getting weak in that case, to cause an occasional no start. A new box fixed the issue.

Unfortunately, the original problem isn't solved yet. The car still refuses to start about 1 out of 20 hot starts but after waiting about 45 minutes, it starts right up.


I scanned it with the VAG-Com and here's the results:


Thursday,08,November,2018,20:37:15:48549
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 10 x64
VCDS Version: 18.9.0.2 (x64)
Data version: 20180927 DS296.0
www.Ross-Tech.com


VIN: 9BWGR61J264006985 License Plate:


Chassis Type: 1J (1J - VW Golf/Bora IV (1998 > 2006))
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 16 17 19 22 29 35 36 37 39 46 47 55 56 57 75
76

VIN: 9BWGR61J264006985 Mileage: 201430km-125162miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 038-906-016-BEW.lbl
Part No SW: 038 906 016 AG HW: 028 101 181 2
Component: R4 1,9L EDC G000AG 7000
Revision: 12345678 Serial number: VWZ7Z0E1820490
Coding: 0150034
Shop #: WSC 00000 785 00200
VCID: 59B79F4A93A4D782F2-515A

1 Fault Found:
16706 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
P0322 - 000 - No Signal - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 252 /min
Torque: 156.0 Nm
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Voltage: 11.93 V
Bin. Bits: 00001100
Idle Stabilization: 0.0°KW
RPM: 126 /min

Readiness: 0 1 0 0 0

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 09A-927-750.lbl
Part No: 09A 927 750 BL
Component: AG5 Getriebe 09A 0262
VCID: 76EDF4F6527A98FAFF-5178

3 Faults Found:
00529 - Engine Speed Signal Missing
03-10 - No Signal - Intermittent
01166 - Engine Torque Signal
03-10 - No Signal - Intermittent
01045 - Tiptronic Switch (F189)
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 1C0-907-37x-ESP-F.lbl
Part No: 1C0 907 379 M
Component: ESP FRONT MK60 0102
Coding: 0019458
Shop #: WSC 00000 785 00200
VCID: 34690EFE5486CAEA01-5178

1 Fault Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module
013 - Check DTC Memory - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 1C0-959-799.lbl
Part No: 1C0 959 799 C
Component: 8C Komfortgerát HLO 0004
Coding: 00258
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 377339F215F021F224-4B18

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1C1959801A
Component: 8C Tõrsteuer.FS KLO 0202

Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1C1959802A
Component: 8C Tõrsteuer.BF KLO 0202

Subsystem 3 - Part No: 1C0959811A
Component: 8C Tõrsteuer.HL KLO 0202

Subsystem 4 - Part No: 1C0959812A
Component: 8C Tõrsteuer.HR KLO 0202

1 Fault Found:
00929 - Locking Module for Central Locking; Front Passenger Side (F221)
27-00 - Implausible Signal
 
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