EA288 - A diesel way forward?

Zut Alors!

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The EA288's are included in the EPA recall, but from what I can gather, there's no evidence published that it exceeds the standards. From a couple of posts I've read over in the Thread of Doom(tm), the reason for the EA288s are on the list seem to be because they have the defeat software still in the ECU, so they're going to need to be flashed. That doesn't make total sense to me (the last part), but there you go.
 

Benton

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the reason for the EA288s are on the list seem to be because they have the defeat software still in the ECU, so they're going to need to be flashed. That doesn't make total sense to me (the last part), but there you go.
I guess you're assuming the EA288 is within the EPA specs when not being monitored?
That makes sense but can one test this? I own a Ross-Tech VCDS but haven't dug that deep yet. My ride just turned 1000 mi. She's a nu-be.
 

Zut Alors!

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I'm assuming that the EA288 is within specs because the SCR by nature is rather effective at reducing NOx emissions. What we don't know is the amount of urea released is enough to keep it under the emissions regulations though.
 

panda

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I guess you're assuming the EA288 is within the EPA specs when not being monitored?
That makes sense but can one test this? I own a Ross-Tech VCDS but haven't dug that deep yet. My ride just turned 1000 mi. She's a nu-be.
I just sent my Ross-Tech interface in for the CAN upgrade. I'd like to collect all the performance and fuel efficiency data I can before the notice to bring the car in arrives. Even so I don't want to get on it too much as I too just passed 1000 miles. Any suggestions on what to log? I see a nice long road trip with the laptop on the passenger seat.

When the emissions fixes roll out, it seems logical the EA288 will be first. It seems the most likely motor that can be made compliant by a reflash if for no other reason than to remove the defeat routines from the code base. Obviously, if we want to keep our warranty and any warranty sweetener, we WILL have to allow them to do the reflash but I'd rather be toward the end of the line. Maybe it will take them awhile but I doubt it with all the 2015/2016 inventory $$ tied up. I got the last MT GSW at my dealer on September 5th but they had at least 50 TDI Sportwagens alone in their inventory.
 

meerschm

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Great idea to log some values with VCDS.

start with the engine controller advanced measuring values.

calculated and measured soot, all the exhaust temperatures (including DPF)

rpm coolant temp. (you can pick up to 12, I think) include any DEF measures.

an hour drive from cold start is informative. (logging while you go)
adjust selection, repeat.

for me, I really am not so concerned with wide open acceleration, but performance in normal driving.

you also may want to explore the basic settings, and log those values as well.

even without the upcoming modification (switch eliminate), it is good to have some baseline history of what healthy looks like with the VCDS.

just like a map and compass, it helps to know where you start.
 

panda

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Great idea to log some values with VCDS.

start with the engine controller advanced measuring values.

calculated and measured soot, all the exhaust temperatures (including DPF)

rpm coolant temp. (you can pick up to 12, I think) include any DEF measures.

an hour drive from cold start is informative. (logging while you go)
adjust selection, repeat.

for me, I really am not so concerned with wide open acceleration, but performance in normal driving.

you also may want to explore the basic settings, and log those values as well.

even without the upcoming modification (switch eliminate), it is good to have some baseline history of what healthy looks like with the VCDS.

just like a map and compass, it helps to know where you start.
Thanks for the suggestions, just the type of advise I was looking for. (and it was free!)
 

El_Camino

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For what it is worth I was at the dealer Saturday and the 2016 Golf TDI is no longer on hold as "Stop Sale" it is back to "Price" as the hold type. The ship date was moved from 10/12 to 9/28 and there is no price listed on the dealer computers. My sales rep said he has been checking daily and everything he is being told points to him getting cars shortly.

I have not had a chance to read the WVU report but I am interested being an engineer at an automotive company.
 

panda

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Off the reservation

At the risk of going of the reservation here I think the real long term problem for the planet is carbon, specifically carbon in the atmosphere. Until EV's become affordable and their energy can come from true low carbon sources (can I say nuclear here) diesel powered vehicles have a significant contribution to make.

Sure, the NOX cheating debacle needs to be fixed. If it can't be fixed then diesels in small vehicles will cease to be made and used, and frankly that's how it should be. Many hand wringers are now pushing for exactly that outcome. If diesels in small vehicles disappear in the mid to long term we will pump more carbon into the air in a science experiment of epic proportions.

Less is more, less diesel fuel burned == less carbon. I love the torque and power but what I like best is the outstanding mpg that I've received in the 3/4 of million miles I driven diesel vehicles and I know others do too. It will be too bad if the discussion in the day and months ahead becomes only about NOX cheating. I think it's really more complicated than that and hopefully we'll get around to a broader discussion of life time emissions and real world performance 100K down the road. I think these play to the strength of the diesel ICE.

I reread the EA288 Design and Function guide this morning and if this design falls down then heads at VW should roll. There are lots of good things in this design but a huge and I mean huge amount the the design effort has gone into the emission goals. It will be interesting to see how it holds up to the hard scrutiny it is sure to receive.
 

waspie

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For what it is worth I was at the dealer Saturday and the 2016 Golf TDI is no longer on hold as "Stop Sale" it is back to "Price" as the hold type. The ship date was moved from 10/12 to 9/28 and there is no price listed on the dealer computers. My sales rep said he has been checking daily and everything he is being told points to him getting cars shortly.

I have not had a chance to read the WVU report but I am interested being an engineer at an automotive company.
Stopped into my dealer today to test drive a gti, just in case. My tdi sel had a schedule production week of 4115 (next week). He checked and mine has been made (9/28) and assigned a Vin and is on its way to port. I've got to think they wouldn't have produced it if they weren't confident they'd be able to sell them soon.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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That's great news. I've heard they're confident about getting approval soon, and what you learned is another positive indicator.
 

avvblanc01

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this site really does need a like button.

After talking to the tech at he dealer, and from my own knowledge I have 3 theories about our 2015's:

1) Vw knew that the excrement was bound to hit the ventilator, so when the did the EA288 re-design, they made the cars perfectly emissions compliant, and the EPA is simply using the stop sale as leverage to motivate a fix for the previous generation.

2) The EA288 engine simply needs more aggressive urea injection via a ECU tuning update to meet emissions, so without sacrificing anything but more frequent ad blue fill ups, the engine will meet emissions. In my opinion, this is the worse case scenario for us 15-16 owners.
This is how it works for the heavy duty diesel trucks like the newer generation 6.7L Cummins engines that are in the Ram line up. When EGT's are high from to towing, Urea consumption is very high in order to lower nox output. For highway cruising, the EGT's are lower and so are NOx levels, so the system uses much less urea.
Id assume that even with a largely increased urea consumption, our little 2.0L TDI engines still wouldn't use enough to really be an inconvenience.
 

panda

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this site really does need a like button.

After talking to the tech at he dealer, and from my own knowledge I have 3 theories about our 2015's:

1) Vw knew that the excrement was bound to hit the ventilator, so when the did the EA288 re-design, they made the cars perfectly emissions compliant, and the EPA is simply using the stop sale as leverage to motivate a fix for the previous generation.

2) The EA288 engine simply needs more aggressive urea injection via a ECU tuning update to meet emissions, so without sacrificing anything but more frequent ad blue fill ups, the engine will meet emissions. In my opinion, this is the worse case scenario for us 15-16 owners.
This is how it works for the heavy duty diesel trucks like the newer generation 6.7L Cummins engines that are in the Ram line up. When EGT's are high from to towing, Urea consumption is very high in order to lower nox output. For highway cruising, the EGT's are lower and so are NOx levels, so the system uses much less urea.
Id assume that even with a largely increased urea consumption, our little 2.0L TDI engines still wouldn't use enough to really be an inconvenience.
So what's the 3rd theory?

I think #1 makes the most sense. Clearly VW and the EPA were communicating for over a year and not getting anywhere. The jig was up and EPA used the nuclear option. I wonder if VW had planned that things could get as bad as they have.

Timing is everything. Those of us who bought 2015's in the late summer are incredibly unlucky. There are a lot of unsold 2015's and now 2016's that VW is holding. If these are going to sell they will have to offer with a lot of deal sweeteners.

Assuming the EA288 can pass with the performance and economy it currently shows I'd still buy, it's a great car. If I'd only have waited a few days. I think it's possible we will get an extended emission and possibly drive train warranty but that's probably about all.
 

sapgar

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Timing is everything. Those of us who bought 2015's in the late summer are incredibly unlucky. There are a lot of unsold 2015's and now 2016's that VW is holding. If these are going to sell they will have to offer with a lot of deal sweeteners.

We're incredibly unlucky in the near term, but residuals a few years out could be strong if 1) VW curtails the production of TDIs and shifts more to the 1.4t and blue motion mix, and 2) the ea189 engine is negatively impacted, so their residuals take a hit.

I only paid 21.9k for my TDI S 6MT, but that might go for 20 to 21k new for a 2016 after all is said and done.

It's so hard to tell at this point.
 

ottobon100

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My '15 Golf TDI is not affected - maybe???

I found this UK VW web site and entered my VIN. It said my '15 Golf TDI is not affected? Mine was an early '15 model build. I wonder if all it is checking are TDIs sold in the UK and why doesn't the U.S. VW web site have the same thing? I would be interested to hear the result if someone who purchased theirs late summer enters their VIN.

http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/dieselinfo
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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Someone else posted similar on a MKVI. Your car has a North American VIN, isn't in the UK database. So that site can't find it. Your car is affected.
 

J.R.

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We actually won't know until Wednesday if the 15/16's are affected.
What happening on Wednesday?

Thanks OP for starting this thread BTW. I'm a hopeful manual, TDI GSW purchaser in about a year and I've been trying to follow the scandal closely as it pertains to the EA 288 but the main thread is full of so much noise and FUD that it's hard to follow.

Awesome thread :)
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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'15s are listed on the EPA letter. '16s are not because they were not issued authorization for sale. They can't be recalled because they're still at the port, none have been delivered to customers.

What I've heard is '15s will require a reflash, '16s do not.
 

panda

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'15s are listed on the EPA letter. '16s are not because they were not issued authorization for sale. They can't be recalled because they're still at the port, none have been delivered to customers.

What I've heard is '15s will require a reflash, '16s do not.
I assume the '16s have the same hp, torque and mileage specs as the '15's. So is it likely the '15's need the reflash to remove the defeat code from the ECU?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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We don't really know. VW says the '16s meet standards with no changes. They haven't said that about the '15s, but the '15s already were on the market so they'll probably be addressed as part of the recall. Don't know if '15s have a defeat mode, or different tuning for daily driving.
 

pandagolf

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What happening on Wednesday?
Thanks OP for starting this thread BTW. I'm a hopeful manual, TDI GSW purchaser in about a year and I've been trying to follow the scandal closely as it pertains to the EA 288 but the main thread is full of so much noise and FUD that it's hard to follow.
Awesome thread :)
VW is going to officially announce what the fixes are for each model/MY on Wednesday - the deadline given by Germany.

Almost everything you read is speculative until then...although I'm hopeful the 15/16's are unaffected.
 

cane929

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The 15 and 16 are the same, I am sure when the 16's are available for sale they will have the reflash, I am planing on borrowing a 16's from the local dealer for an extended entire day test drive when they come out, and also see what other people are getting after reflashing the 15's before I let the dealership touch mine.
 
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ZippyNH

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VW is going to officially announce what the fixes are for each model/MY on Wednesday - the deadline given by Germany.
Almost everything you read is speculative until then...although I'm hopeful the 15/16's are unaffected.
Remember...those fixes will be for EURO CARS....different emissions standards than the US/CANADA....So I caution you we might be able to infer the US fix, but with more stringent requirements, it may not mirrior the German fix...
I also hope the new motor will be unaffected, except for a programming change to ensure no "banned" or illegal software.....
 

panda

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The 15 and 16 are the same, I am sure when the 16's are available for sale they will have the re flash, I am planing on borrowing a 16's from the local dealer for an extended entire day test drive when they come out, and also see what other people are getting after re flashing the 15's before I let the dealership touch mine.
Yeah, those of us with 15's may be in a bind with respect to warranty work if we don't let them reflash. I got lucky with my '02. It never visited a dealer after purchase until VW replaced the front fenders under the corrosion warranty last summer. Come to think of it, the way they treated my 12 yr old car with 350K miles is the reason I bought again. Customer loyalty.
 

cane929

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Yeah, those of us with 15's may be in a bind with respect to warranty work if we don't let them reflash. I got lucky with my '02. It never visited a dealer after purchase until VW replaced the front fenders under the corrosion warranty last summer. Come to think of it, the way they treated my 12 yr old car with 350K miles is the reason I bought again. Customer loyalty.
Exactly, I am keeping an open mind to all this mess, in the mean time I am thoroughly enjoying my TDI, not to mention this (see pic) with still under a 1K miles on the clock :D
[/URL][/IMG]
 
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