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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD)

VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) This is a general discussion about A4/MkIV Jetta (99.5-~2005), Golf(99.5-2006), and New Beetle(98-2006). Both VE and PD engines are covered here.

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Old November 30th, 2000, 21:49   #1
mickey
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Default To suck or not to suck? That is the question...

jmanner has me worried. He said he tried the suction method to drain his oil and had about 1/2 quart leftover. This led me to an interesting discovery:



As you can see from the photo a TDI's dipstick, fully inserted, won't reach anywhere near to the bottom of the pan. Note that the dipstick stops well above the bottom of the oil pump pickup tube...as you'd expect. However, even the PICKUP TUBE doesn't reach nearly to the bottom of the pan, and the next pic will show you why...



Notice that there is a weird plastic baffle in the oil pan! The pump actually draws oil from ABOVE this baffle. (I assume the baffle is intended to prevent the oil from splashing around, though I don't really know.)

The white circle is drawn around a small notch in the baffle. (It's difficult to see.) I'm pretty sure the tip of the dipstick is supposed to poke through the little notch. Below that, there is nothing to impede an oil suction tube from striking the bottom of the pan. The bottom is slightly bevelled along the edges, so you'd need the suction tube to bend on the bottom. If you feel it hitting the bottom and push it down another inch or two you should get more oil out. BUT: If the tube hits the plastic baffle you'll leave nearly a gallon in there!

Comments? To be honest, I've only used the suction method on my Mercedes...and it works great. Others have had success with TDIs, but jmanner may have run into a snag that we'll need to be aware of in the future.

-mickey



[This message has been edited by mickey (edited November 30, 2000).]
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Old November 30th, 2000, 22:57   #2
T5TDI
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Default Re: To suck or not to suck? That is the question...

I think you're right about the that baffle mickey. I've seen it other cars. I believe it's there to stop the spashing oil making "ploinking" noises.

Hey I just invented a new word!

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Old December 1st, 2000, 00:43   #3
chopchop
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Default Re: To suck or not to suck? That is the question...

Thanks for this. I suppose it's a question of monitoring the sort of quantity you expect to drain out. I recall from the pic of that Topmaster [sorry if I have the name wrong] unit that it had a metal receptacle. Pouring the oil into a translucent 5-litre plastic container so you can see how much has been drawn out would help - if it looks insufficient, fiddle around with the tube a bit and try for more?

Suggested mod for whoever makes the Topmaster - a see-thru' capacity-marked container?

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Old December 1st, 2000, 04:57   #4
RabbitGTI
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Default Re: To suck or not to suck? That is the question...

The baffle is there to makes sure all the oil does'nt end up in one corner of the pan during hard cornering. That would lead to the oil pump pumping air for a second or two...very bad for bearings. Older style pumps had a baffle that clipped onto the oil pickup tube. Does the new style baffle have a vertical rib that extends from the bottom of the pan to the baffle and divides the pan into two chambers?

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Old December 1st, 2000, 05:59   #5
GeWilli
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Default Re: To suck or not to suck? That is the question...

rabbit - you are right - haven't yall been up on the performance stuff?

Oil pan baffles are primo importance to high G driving styles.

It keeps the oil from sloshing around to the point that the suction tube pulls air through the system.

Can you imagine what might happen if a little air got up to the Turbo? Kinda like injecting Air into you own blood stream. death - the oil pan baffles prevent death!

Use the drain plug okay!

HA HA now you HAVE to crawl under there - nothing like a good set of Rhino Ramps (on sale now at http://www.FarmandCountry.com stores $29.99 . . . get your self a little wheelie thing and boom even more relaxing than pumping.
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Old December 1st, 2000, 10:44   #6
ANTARTI
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Default Re: To suck or not to suck? That is the question...

Mickey,

Do our TDI's come with windage trays?



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Old December 1st, 2000, 11:11   #7
Dante
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Default Re: To suck or not to suck? That is the question...

Thanks Mickey! A picture is worth a thousand words. Now I won't suck.
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Old December 1st, 2000, 16:39   #8
jayb79
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Default Re: To suck or not to suck? That is the question...

The baffle also keeps the oil from splashing on the crank and decreasing performance.
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Old December 2nd, 2000, 00:38   #9
DeafBug
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Default Re: To suck or not to suck? That is the question...

mickey,

In other postings, it was mentioned to cut a slant at the tube end. I am wondering if you put the tube in one way, would it go over the baffle? If you put it in the other way, it would stop short. You know, catch my drift? Also a mark at the tube would help. Next time you know how much of the tube must go in.

Just a thought.
Brad
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Old December 2nd, 2000, 02:21   #10
sierraent
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Default Re: To suck or not to suck? That is the question...

Mickey,

Great pics and thanks! I'm in the camp of drain AND suck as I've thought of another possible benefit of the baffle.

At 5,000 miles, the dealer had changed the oil on my Golf but used a non CH-4 Oil. I treated it as a "flush" and changed it to Delvac-1 and put in a new oil filter 70 miles later at home. I drained the oil and also used suction to get all of the "black" 70 mile oil from the oil filter case and below.

However, when I poured that "70 mile" oil into a container, there were small filings at the bottom of the drain pan!!??

I suspect that the dealer did not drain the oil, but merely sucked out the oil, and that the break-in filings didn't get taken out of the oil pan.

In looking at your photo, I could envision how that baffle not only allows the filings to settle down to the bottom of the pan, but also helps minimize the filings from being churned up into the oil (from the journals of the crankshaft dropping down into the oil) and then getting back into the engine.

By the way, with that second oil change and the suction, the oil stayed amber for about 600 miles before it started to get a grey cast and then go dark.

I'll continue to treat the dealer's remaining free oil changes as "flushes" and do the same process. Since my local Discount Auto Parts store has repackaged CH-4 rated Shell Rotella T 15-40 (non-syn) for $4.99/gallon, I will likely use that for a flush of a few miles and then put in Delvac-1, each time I do oil changes.

I also question the idea that the baffle helps the oil pump to pickup oil on hard curves. Oil will move quickly under side g-forces, and will not be held back by a horzontal baffle; vertical yes but not a horizontal. Was there a vertical piece below what we see in the photo?

Thanks for your emails back to me on some questions I had, and thanks for being a moderating, knowledgable and influencial lead on this Forum!

Cheers!



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Old December 2nd, 2000, 06:40   #11
RabbitGTI
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Default Re: To suck or not to suck? That is the question...

Here's the clip-on baffle from mid 80s cars with the high volume oil pump. It has two baffles that extend to the bottom of the pan http://rapidparts.com/Pages/vwc020i.html
Here is an excellent aftermarket piece that has compartments that extend to the bottom of the pan. http://rapidparts.com/Pages/vwc016i.html
It also ups the oil capacity to 5.3 quarts, I run these on my A1 and A2 cars.
The curved, horizontal portion of the baffle visible in Mickey's photo is to prevent the crank from foaming the oil. If VW calls that thing a baffle, the baffles (vertical dividers are underneath). If they're not there, VW screwed up. 99% of the point of tricking up an oilpan is to dam up the oil under the pickup (ask the owners of the previous generation M3s who did highspeed events on ovals) :-)

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Old December 2nd, 2000, 07:58   #12
Dante
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Default Re: To suck or not to suck? That is the question...

sierraent, thanks for your posts. I had a similar dealer experience. The Delvac 1 I gave them was black when I picked up the car. I can only conclude that they left a significant amount of dirty oil in the system somehow--possibly by sucking. I'm going to treat that change as a "flush" and change the oil myself in the very near future. From now on, I'll use their "free" oil as a flush and then change to my own Delvac later.

Thanks again for the great information, mickey!
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Old December 2nd, 2000, 13:08   #13
Dan Clarke
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Default Re: To suck or not to suck? That is the question...

Hi,

How 'bout using that hollow dain plug intended for bypass oil filter returns to introduce a tube that terminates somewhere near the top of the engine in an accessable spot to suck through?

Dan
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Old December 2nd, 2000, 13:38   #14
dieseldorf
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Default Re: To suck or not to suck? That is the question...

Mickey, I bought a Topsider MVP yesterday. They can be purchased at marine stores or via catalog or directly from the mfg.

I was able to extract nearly 4 qts. so I guess there was probably some oil left over in the bottom of the pan. The tubes/hoses provided with the Topsider are quite soft. I was going to try to find a rigid tube to stick down the dipstick and see if I could pull out more oil. That may be a better solution.

You can tell the tube provided with the Topsider is just bending when its inserted and you can push lots of extra and uneeded tubing down the dipstick.

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Old December 2nd, 2000, 18:36   #15
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Default Re: To suck or not to suck? That is the question...

Mickey thanks for the great pictures and dieseldorf thanks for your latest report on the sucking method. Now I am also worried. I was also going to try extracting the oil but now am undecided. However there must be 300/400 ml left in the filter cannister when you remove the filter so you may have extracted most of the oil?

Is there anyone else out there that can update us on the actual amount of oil they remove by this process? Your advice is appreciated and will help me decide if I will be buying low profile ramps or some type of extractor. Thanks
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