Mk4 golf track suspension

Gents,

I am in the process of build my 01 golf tdi for autocross/road course. I am getting close to the point of installing new suspension. What are the best options for good handling coil overs? This golf will be driven on the street also so I need a happy medium between track and street driving.

Thanks!

back in the day, we had Shine Real Street suspension, with custom springs that raised the front suspension slightly and lowered the rear slightly, with their rear sway bar and Bilstein monotubes

Thanks for the info. I just need something to start with. I’m scrapping all the stock stuff as it is all junk.

There's a lot of data out there on what works well on autocross and road courses in MKIVs. I'll share some of my own experiences. I ran my Wagon on road courses for years, and also had a '99.5 2-Door Golf that I used for some time.
Here's a photo of IBW at Lime Rock near the end of its race career.

There are several things you need to control to make a front drive, nose-heavy car handle decently well on the track. Most important is front-end geometry. It's essential to set the car up so it has negative camber (negative two to three degrees) and that camber doesn't change dramatically when the car rolls. This means you have to control body roll. Sway bars are a bad way to do it because they'll unload the inside front wheel and allow it to spin, unless you have a LSD. Stiffer springs are better. And a good rule of thumb is to keep the car tall enough so the control arms are parallel to the ground. If they are higher at the wheel than the subframe you're encouraging positive camber, which will reduce grip.
Second is that the car should be level. When it's level it will appear that the rear is lower than the front because the front wheel openings are higher, but it's not. Keeping the rear level with the front helps the car rotate.
Here's my '99.5 Golf at optimum ride height and corner balanced.

Whether or not you use a rear bar is up to you. Front bar is useless, keep the stock one or disconnect it. Or take it out. But run stiff enough springs to keep front body roll in control. If you do run a rear bar use one that's internal to the rear axle. The ones outside the axle aren't stiff enough to make much difference.
Regarding hardware, Here's my suggestions:

• Good quality coilovers (I like Konis, but Bilsteins are good, too)
• Run springs stiff enough to control body roll (try the ones that come with the coils first, but I had better luck with 550 Front/400 Rear. I ran 700 front/550 rear for a while and that worked well, too. Surprisingly it wasn't brutal on the street.
• Camber plates to get the negative camber you need (Ground-Control has ones with spherical bearings, those work well, but you won't want to run them in the winter).
• Rear bar like the one we sell or similar
• TT control arm and subframe bushings.
• Strut brace

That's a good start. There's more you can do, but you'll have a lot of fun with that kind of setup.

One more thing regarding Shine Real Street suspension. It's called Street for a reason, and it's not stiff enough for the track. You'll get a lot of body roll and the inside rear wheel will lift a lot in corners. That looks great, but it doesn't help grip.

Hope this helps.

Thanks indigoblue!! That’s some good info. The car isn’t going to be a track only driver. I intend to drive it to meets and what not. As long as the ride is bearable on the road and good on the track that’s what I’m looking for. I’m sure down the line I can upgrade/change set ups but I need a base point to start.

Thanks all!

IndigoBlueWagon said:

There's a lot of data out there on what works well on autocross and road courses in MKIVs. I'll share some of my own experiences. I ran my Wagon on road courses for years, and also had a '99.5 2-Door Golf that I used for some time.
Here's a photo of IBW at Lime Rock near the end of its race career.

There are several things you need to control to make a front drive, nose-heavy car handle decently well on the track. Most important is front-end geometry. It's essential to set the car up so it has negative camber (negative two to three degrees) and that camber doesn't change dramatically when the car rolls. This means you have to control body roll. Sway bars are a bad way to do it because they'll unload the inside front wheel and allow it to spin, unless you have a LSD. Stiffer springs are better. And a good rule of thumb is to keep the car tall enough so the control arms are parallel to the ground. If they are higher at the wheel than the subframe you're encouraging positive camber, which will reduce grip.
Second is that the car should be level. When it's level it will appear that the rear is lower than the front because the front wheel openings are higher, but it's not. Keeping the rear level with the front helps the car rotate.
Here's my '99.5 Golf at optimum ride height and corner balanced.

Whether or not you use a rear bar is up to you. Front bar is useless, keep the stock one or disconnect it. Or take it out. But run stiff enough springs to keep front body roll in control. If you do run a rear bar use one that's internal to the rear axle. The ones outside the axle aren't stiff enough to make much difference.
Regarding hardware, Here's my suggestions:

• Good quality coilovers (I like Konis, but Bilsteins are good, too)
• Run springs stiff enough to control body roll (try the ones that come with the coils first, but I had better luck with 550 Front/400 Rear. I ran 700 front/550 rear for a while and that worked well, too. Surprisingly it wasn't brutal on the street.
• Camber plates to get the negative camber you need (Ground-Control has ones with spherical bearings, those work well, but you won't want to run them in the winter).
• Rear bar like the one we sell or similar
• TT control arm and subframe bushings.
• Strut brace

That's a good start. There's more you can do, but you'll have a lot of fun with that kind of setup.

Click to expand...

Don't you mean a TT spindle (wheel bearing housing) to correct the front suspension geometry from lowering the car?

One more thing regarding Shine Real Street suspension. It's called Street for a reason, and it's not stiff enough for the track. You'll get a lot of body roll and the inside rear wheel will lift a lot in corners. That looks great, but it doesn't help grip.
Hope this helps.

Click to expand...

It sounds like you didn't completely read the OP's needs in a suspension. The Shine suspension was tuned to be a weekend race car, yet tolerable enough for daily driving.

Your rear bar is a copy of the Shine rear sway bar.

I didn't mean TT spindles. I never made that change, although a lot of folks do. I tried to get H2Sport spindles out of Canada, and was never able to get them to ship product.

There are better options than Shine for a weekend race car that's driven daily. I ran coilovers on my wagon for several summers with no issues, and ride and handling on the street were totally acceptable. I had Shine springs and rear bars on both the Golf and the Wagon at one point. The rear bar is still in the Wagon, been there since '04. But the Shine front springs aren't stiff enough to adequately limit roll at track speeds. With Shine springs I could get the Golf on 3 wheels at 100 MPH, which isn't the most comfortable feeling.

What is the gain from the TT control arms?

They allow you to lower the car more and still keep front camber favorable. But it's not a minor swap: you need arms, tie rod ends, ball joints, brake carriers, calipers, and new front rotors and pads for whatever size brakes you put on (288mm or 312mm). And if you want to keep the front bar you'll need new struts, as the TT sway bar attaches to the strut, not the control arm. Bigger brakes are nice, but I was never a fan of adding more unsprung weight. And I don't use brakes that much on the track. Probably why I'm not that fast.

Yourbuddysatin said:

What is the gain from the TT control arms?

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The way the TT (or R32) LCA attaches to the ball joint is different. The 3 openings on the LCA for the ball joint bolts is oblong allowing adjustments the normal MKIV LCA doesn't.

The TT ball joint is also different (has 3 studs, MKIV has 3 holes).

Google TT LCA MKIV and look at the different images, it will help "show" how the difference can help with adjustments.

And as IBW mentioned there isn't a provision for the FSB, though there were some early versions that had a nub you could tap & thread to allow the normal FSB & mounts.

Thank you guy! Greatful for the information!

I run TT/ R32 spindles/ control arms with decent dampers, Audi 90 strut mounts(1/2" drop) and solid subframe mounts. IMHO it behaves WAY better than my last car ever did, I went through lots of spring/ damper/ coilover/ bushing combos on that car along with a shine rear bar.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

.... And I'm not that fast. Probably why I don't use brakes that much on the track.

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There, fixed it for you.

Cheers,

PH

As stated above, the one mistake a lot of people make with these cars is lowering them, and the geometry of the control arms is not good for that.

Not sure if anyone mentioned it yet, but tires are a HUGE deal. Sticky rubber on wider tires is a big advantage, but you should expect that the best track tires will make awful street tires. So an extra set of wheels wrapped in sticky rubber swapped out at the track are best.

Of course, I never did stuff as extensive as Peter, but I did play around and modify a lot of things on my 1995 Golf Sport (what the GTI was called here that year), and even after about $3k in suspension upgrades and rolling on a sticky set of Nitto race tires I was still able to get around the same track WAY faster in my buddy's 100% stock first gen Miata. And he had some garbage K-mart tires on it at the time that squealed and smoked. My Golf could hang with the Miata fender to fender in a straight line, but in the twisties a little RWD car is king. That kinda took the wind out of my sails, and made me come to the conclusion that even the best VAG Ax car is not a "real" sports car, although I would imagine a Golf R would be a lot of fun.

By and large VWs and Audis aren't considered good track cars. Too heavy, especially in front, suspensions that are made more for ride than handling, and, with the exception of some Audis recently, low on power. Porsches are popular, but also considered dangerous. Of the wrecks I've seen at tracks by far the majority of them have been Porsches.

I had an NA Miata for a couple seasons and didn't like it. Too low on power. If I were looking for a track day car now I don't know what I'd get. I have a rule that if you can't afford to total the car at the track without insurance then it's too expensive for what you're doing. And I don't think I'd be happy totaling a new R, or even a GTI. Certainly not a Cayman, which would be fun.

"a Cayman, which would be fun" IBW

That's the one I'd like, but I have to ask how much,,,,,,,
therefore I can't afford it.

Lol, dya' think you could get a V6 tdi in one? Twin turbos???????

Mebbe I should start buyin' lottery tickets, {;o)

"tires are a HUGE deal" OH

AND rims, I looked long and hard to come up with my current combo of 35.3#s @. BIG difference getting that unsprung weight down. Everybody seems to think 17" rims are the cat's miaow.
They're heavy, and so are the tires. 16" is the sweet spot IMO.
TireRack is one of the few places I found that actually has the weights of both.

R*2

There is an RX8 engine powered Miata running around STL. I think that would be fun (while it lasted), but the Miata's small fuel tank would probably make the pump sucking rotary making lots of fuel stops. Although I suppose the Miata is WAY lighter than the rather obese RX8.

I never found the Miata's stock engine's relatively low power to be "bad", because it to me goes more in line with what a real simple sports car is supposed to be. Well balanced, fun, and forgiving if driven on the edge. some of the best driving cars in my experience were just that. Not necessarily the most powerful.

The only other car I think I have had as much fun driving at the SCCA events was one of my customers' (who daily drives a Golf ) classic, restored, and period modified BMW 2002tii. That car is thrilling, and while pretty powerful in its day, is nothing super special by today's standards in straight line performance... but you can throw it into the turns as hard as you like, and it keeps its composure in a fantastic manner. The Getrag box is perfectly weighted and the throws are short and precise. The factory LSD works exceptionally well, the brakes are stellar, and the power band of the engine is flat and on tap all the way up to redline. One lap in that car, and you see where BMW got the "Ultimate Driving Machine" moniker. Too bad they've turned into fugly yuppiemobiles with spotty reliability and overcomplex EVERYTHING.

oilhammer said:

My Golf could hang with the Miata fender to fender in a straight line, but in the twisties a little RWD car is king.

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A Miata is little? Ha! (well, maybe on the inside). I'm guessing you have never driven a Mini in the twisties.
You might change your mind about FWD cars. There are plenty of (much bigger) RWD cars that wish they had the handling of a little FWD car - not to mention the room on the inside.

Given the original Mini was never actually marketed and sold here, I'd venture to say very few Americans have had the opportunity to drive one. I however have (a later one, with the goofy square font end). It was a neat little car, but felt pretty slow. Of course, I have no idea what version/specification it was, and it was nowhere near a race prepped car.

I'd still rather be cut loose in the winding roads in a Miata or a Boxster.

oilhammer said:

Given the original Mini was never actually marketed and sold here, I'd venture to say very few Americans have had the opportunity to drive one.

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Actually they were. From 1959-1967 they sold quite a few in the USA. Since then however, many more have been imported.

I however have (a later one, with the goofy square font end). It was a neat little car, but felt pretty slow. Of course, I have no idea what version/specification it was, and it was nowhere near a race prepped car.

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That's a Clubman. They were never well received. The wagons looked OK, but the saloons not so much. It was probably a 1000, which made about 38 HP as I recall.

I'd still rather be cut loose in the winding roads in a Miata or a Boxster.

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I can't speak to the Boxster, but we had a Miata for a few years. We had it at the Tail of the Dragon several times. It was nice, but I'll take a well sorted Mini over it. If you get the opportunity to drive a nice 1275 Mini, take it for a spin. I think you would be impressed. No other street car drives like a Mini. Even Enzo Ferrari liked driving his!

My dad bought a '59 Austin 850 (later badged the Mini) when they came out. I rode in that car a lot. Sadly it was gone before I was old enough to drive. My dad owned a lot of cars, and I'd have to say the Mini was his all time favorite.

Front drive cars can be quick, but VWs aren't that quick. Too heavy, suspension geometry isn't that great. And until the most recent GTI and R, they didn't have a lot of power for their weight unless modified.

Russell, you're totally right about wheel and tire weight. Often overlooked, and most important. Best setup I have is Motegi Traklites with Hoosier H6s on them. 225/50-16s, 32 lbs a corner. But they're not cheap to run. The Hoosier's treadwear rating is 60. They last about 12 hours of hot laps. Cost $1,000/set.

And oilhammer, what I didn't like about the Miata was it was a 1.6L with few suspension mods. So I was often the slowest car in my run group. That wears on you after a while, even if you are having fun. I did have a great day with it at Lime Rock, however. Perfect track for that car.

After real road racing in the Chump/Lemon for over 4 years with the fasts TDI Beetle in the USA!! I have tried all of the above setups over the years. and our lap-times as of this year at Thompson CT and NH are the fasts TDI ever.
This us last year at NH and most VW platform look like this in a hard turn

No sway bars front spring rate of 300 lb and a rear rate of 375 lb
a roll center of

Now for this year with some big changes that really work

We are doing close to over 100MPH diving in to turn 1 you can see all wheels on the ground, car is flat to the ground

Spring rate front 375 LB rear 375 LB no sway bars TT lower control arms custom lower ball joints

This what it looks like when you are in the hunt with the lead group

What you read out there is old school same old stuff but if you are looking for real fast lap times you got to step out of the box!!
Just my view and 4+ years of testing.

I haven't tracked the TDI in a long time, but I've got a set of H&R Dunebuggy coilovers, Autotech 28mm adjustable RSB, GLI spindles, brakes, poly rear axle bushings, TT control arm bushings, and a Peloquin LSD. The coilovers have 180K on them and the rear shocks started leaking so I replaced them Koni Sports years ago. I have to say the LSD was probably the upgrade with the most wow-factor. The car just pulls through the apex and strongly diminishes the understeer that the open diff offered. The downside is that you can really eat up the inside shoulder of your tires if you go too hard on the throttle on exit...but it sure is fun.