2003 Jetta wagon Turbo and injector and tune recommendations

So I am now looking for different variables involved and the best option for the money and benefit.
Right now I have an 11mm injector pump with automatic injectors .158 and stock turbo.
The car had a manual swap done by the original owner.

This is my DD, I want the best fuel mileage, but, I also want a bit more power, not a tricked out ride! Most of my driving is in a small town with some highway and occasional road trips then more of the same.

I have been thinking of going with a VNT15 replacement and manual injectors .184, injectors recommended by Indigo Blue Wagon for the DD. With this setup I would use the VCDS to adjust IQ and possibly a tune after I play enough to decide.

I have been recommended by two different people to go to a VNT17 with .205 injectors, or PP520's and a tune.


I have also read:

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Jeff at Rocketchip says a sweet spot in an ALH is 11mm pump and PP520s. I drove this set up for a long time and he's right. Low smoke, good FE, plenty of power. People here are always pushing bigger nozzles but there's some balance that needs to be struck between atomization and injection duration. And 170 WHP on a conservative dyno is easy with that hardware and the right tune.

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So, What is the balance between the two pros and cons of both.
Which is actually better for the desires I have stated?

Have to ask to make sure first that the manual transmission swapped-in is a correct TDI one... What is the RPM @ MPH on fifth gear, or better yet, can you find out from the previous owner what is the transmission code used?

If economy is a priority, I would not touch the turbo. A mild upgrade to .184 injectors or 520 injectors and a GDE tune (see the TDI Fuel Economy forum).

Numbers will help as to what your power objectives are.

TDIMeister, A reputable guy in SC, can't remember his name, did the swap.
Daniel Grindstaff has done the maintenance on this car for the original owner and recommended the guy who did the trans, therefore, I am not worried about the trans whatsoever.

I am looking at replacing the turbo as the car has 282k, I believe it is original beings Daniel hasn't mentioned that being replaced.
Fuel mileage now is good 46-52 highway depending on how I drive it.
I would like a bit more power, not a tremendous amount.

I would love to get 58 mpg, that I realize is mostly driving style and a decent tune.
I will not sacrifice performance for mileage, I just believe that I can have my cake and eat it too provided I am reasonable, and thorough.

I am mostly happy with my present fuel mileage, would like more of course, and would like a bit more umph when I want it.

If you're purely doing it for economy, probably won't recover the price of any software unless you're doing some serious miles. Should be able to get away with manual nozzles with an IQ of 5-7 with a slightly advanced pump and see a bump in performance over what you currently have.

One of GDE's engineers used to be an OEM calibrator and they REALLY know their way around diesels and economy. They've been doing very well with DPF/DEF variations on the newer VM motors in jeeps and rams and have good economy focused tunes.

A VNT17 with a good tune will completely transform the car, but once you start modifying it's a slippery slope. You'll be looking at ~1K for a turbo, plus at minimum a sach single mass clutch kit, then you'll probably want a 3 bar map sensor to run it at 24 PSI instead of ~18-22 on lighter tunes. Then you'll want more traction from better tires and have to give up economy by going away from a cheaper low rolling resistance tire. Then an axle might act up and you'll want a larger downpipe, etc etc.

It's never ending. Best approach to economically modifying a car: don't start in the first place

I bet Dan Goldsten did the swap. He's in SC and one of the best.

What clutch is in the car? If it's a G60/VR6 then you've got some headroom.

If it were my car and I was after economy, I'd replace the VNT-15 with another one, swap in manual nozzles and have it tuned.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I bet Dan Goldsten did the swap. He's in SC and one of the best.

What clutch is in the car? If it's a G60/VR6 then you've got some headroom.

If it were my car and I was after economy, I'd replace the VNT-15 with another one, swap in manual nozzles and have it tuned.

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That name sounds right. I'm just really good at forgetting names when I hear them once or twice.
Maybe I should call and ask. I'm not sure. I could ask Daniel the PO's name when I drop off the car for the TB then call him.

Owain, I get that the slippery slope is steep and slick!
That is part of the reason I created this thread. I want to do it once and be happy.

I appreciate all the feedback that I am receiving!

My 2 cent's, you don't change things just because they could go, so if the turbo is still in good shape, the vnt mechanism is free, has very little shaft play, no need to replace it.

What others have said, slightly bigger injectors, and a tune will wake that car up. If you want and can, deleting the cat and putting a better muffler on will make a bit of a difference. Of course, make sure the car is in good shape, with all the maintenance up to snuff.

My wife's auto wagon and previous ALH cars, with nozzles and a tune, exhaust mods, were very fun to drive and got great mpg. Had no complaints using the stock turbo.

turbovan+tdi said:

My 2 cent's, you don't change things just because they could go, so if the turbo is still in good shape, the vnt mechanism is free, has very little shaft play, no need to replace it.

What others have said, slightly bigger injectors, and a tune will wake that car up. If you want and can, deleting the cat and putting a better muffler on will make a bit of a difference. Of course, make sure the car is in good shape, with all the maintenance up to snuff.

My wife's auto wagon and previous ALH cars, with nozzles and a tune, exhaust mods, were very fun to drive and got great mpg. Had no complaints using the stock turbo.

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I get the if it isn't broke don't fix it mentality.
At the same time I see the turbo has seen 282k mi and I don't like the thought of tempting engine runaway.
Better to spend $800 on a new turbo in a maintenance factor than to spend that plus the rebuild or replacement of an engine.

I would like to see this car hit 500k.
I will have to pull the intake and turbo to clean them both relatively soon as it is.
So the intention is to stick a good turbo in that has a good life ahead of it and add a little power without going overboard.

I don't have the desire to remove the cat, however, I have thought about it. Not worth the increase in power with the effects to the environment, because I care.

The other thing on my mind is new suspension, it's soft and I like the feeling of having my wheels under me rather than along side me.

I realize my biggest upgrade in this scenario would be good suspension creating a better ride and the ability to go faster on some roads.
Hopefully a bit more go and peace of mind to accompany it.

I hope to hear of you driving that car another 240K �� Suspension " KONI FSD package"is the newest system they offer. Non-Adjustable, don't get all tangled up with other stuff Too expensive and why lower the car ?why spend hours trying to dial in handling- race track yes DD I don't think it's needed, on a turbo set up Blasst performance turbo can modify a 17/22 to keep up with whatever mods you throw at it - you are talking about a level of reliably correct ! Any way keep us posted as to your improvements- the major tuners in this forum have tried and tested a lot of set ups ask them ! Good luck !

I would order a turbocharger from Frans at Dutch Auto Parts. His rebuilt turbos are actually brand new cartridges in a used manifold. That would be an easy way to save $300.

eddieleephd said:

I get the if it isn't broke don't fix it mentality.
At the same time I see the turbo has seen 282k mi and I don't like the thought of tempting engine runaway.
Better to spend $800 on a new turbo in a maintenance factor than to spend that plus the rebuild or replacement of an engine.
I would like to see this car hit 500k.
I will have to pull the intake and turbo to clean them both relatively soon as it is.
So the intention is to stick a good turbo in that has a good life ahead of it and add a little power without going overboard.
I don't have the desire to remove the cat, however, I have thought about it. Not worth the increase in power with the effects to the environment, because I care.
The other thing on my mind is new suspension, it's soft and I like the feeling of having my wheels under me rather than along side me.
I realize my biggest upgrade in this scenario would be good suspension creating a better ride and the ability to go faster on some roads.
Hopefully a bit more go and peace of mind to accompany it.

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I bought a new VNT-15 on sale for $650 so wait until a good deal comes along
at one of our trusted vendors. Likewise with suspension upgrades and nozzles.
Just putting in DLC520's will feel like a tune!
Keeping your cat is no penalty at this power level.

Right now at Dutch Auto Parts a vnt15 with a new CHRA is $450.

So as I am going through looking at options I find:
www.turbo.com.sg/e-news/Garrett%20VNT%20-%20Non-repair%20buletin.pdf

It basically states that "Garrett does not make replacement parts for their turbo's and that it is risky to attempt," a few times over.

Kinda makes you wonder where they are getting their turbo cores.

eddieleephd said:

So as I am going through looking at options I find:
www.turbo.com.sg/e-news/Garrett%20VNT%20-%20Non-repair%20buletin.pdf

It basically states that "Garrett does not make replacement parts for their turbo's and that it is risky to attempt," a few times over.

Kinda makes you wonder where they are getting their turbo cores.

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You can still rebuild the actual core but its the VNT portion in the exhaust manifold that is the issue. I've done a few but the VNT portion worked perfectly fine but if you have sticky vanes, time to buy a new complete turbo.

turbovan+tdi said:

You can still rebuild the actual core but its the VNT portion in the exhaust manifold that is the issue. I've done a few but the VNT portion worked perfectly fine but if you have sticky vanes, time to buy a new complete turbo.

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This is why on my original tdi I just shot PB Blaster in it and worked them loose.
Functioned fine until the insurance company called it totaled due to the oil pan impact.

I'll echo what some others have said already.

1) Make sure all the maintenance is up to date and the car is running well in stock form

2) Get a "Stage 2" tune from your favorite tuner

3) STOP there and be happy

With everything in working order, a runaway is not a big concern as the anti-shutter valve will shut things down when you turn the key off.

If the turbo fails, you have many options with what to replace it with at that time, I wouldn't replace it if there are no signs of impending failure.

A "Stage 2" tune will run ~18 psi, advance the injection timing and add fuel when you need it giving you the additional power when you put your foot down and better economy (at the sacrifice of NOx emissions) when cruising due to no EGR and more advanced injection timing. You won't need a new clutch, intake, exhaust, etc - this is the best bang for the $$ spent in my opinion.

You can upgrade things as needed or as they fail if you want, but others have mentioned a steep teflon coated slope that you're teetering on the edge of - My opinion is that a clutch is on the other side of that slope. Once you have to replace that, you may as well go "all in" so stay on the simple side with just a tune.

Run taller LRR tires, low viscosity engine/trans oils, etc and this will also help your MPG's a bit.

For the suspension/handling aspect, a nice set of dampers (Koni's of your preference are popular) a rear sway bar and the "Beef" springs are a nice setup that drives well, handles well, not harsh, but noticeably improved over stock - will set you back ~$1k though once it's all said and done.

^^X2, yup this.

On the suspension side, I've put Blausport replacement packages on three cars
http://www.blauparts.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MGR1002-B
$290 for MK4 kit with EVERYTHING (bushings bearings, bumpers, even locktite and antisieze)
And replacement springs from rock auto.
http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=2678402&cc=3163&jsn=403
$65 and $55 respectively.
This ends up being about $$360 which is pretty competitive for a new replacement suspension. I've been very happy with the results on each. they claim 15% firmer damping. I'd agree, a little firmer than stock but not harsh. Very happy with the ride and endurance in a 2010 Jetta SW TDI (60k miles on this kit before going back to VW), 2002 Jetta TDI Smyth Ute (25k on this kit and still counting) and a 2002 jetta wagon 2.0 (10k on this kit before its life was ended by a Toy Tacoma at a stop sign)

This is stock height stuff, no lowering. I know this is the wrong place for non-engine stuff so I'll just say, PM if you want more conversation on it

As far as the performance mods, all these really smart guys have already said it, slippery slope. I've got an 11mm pump, .205 injectors, Stage 2 clutch (replaced when I did the auto-manual trans swap) and a Malone stage 3 tune. I love it. I tend to drive 'spirited' with the A/C on all the time (N Florida) and get 42 MPG consistently in semi urban driving (no interstate). Car got 38 MPG as an auto when I first got it.

hesty32 said:

On the suspension side, I've put Blausport replacement packages on three cars
http://www.blauparts.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MGR1002-B
$290 for MK4 kit with EVERYTHING (bushings bearings, bumpers, even locktite and antisieze)
And replacement springs from rock auto.
http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=2678402&cc=3163&jsn=403
$65 and $55 respectively.
This ends up being about $$360 which is pretty competitive for a new replacement suspension. I've been very happy with the results on each. they claim 15% firmer damping. I'd agree, a little firmer than stock but not harsh. Very happy with the ride and endurance in a 2010 Jetta SW TDI (60k miles on this kit before going back to VW), 2002 Jetta TDI Smyth Ute (25k on this kit and still counting) and a 2002 jetta wagon 2.0 (10k on this kit before its life was ended by a Toy Tacoma at a stop sign)

This is stock height stuff, no lowering. I know this is the wrong place for non-engine stuff so I'll just say, PM if you want more conversation on it

As far as the performance mods, all these really smart guys have already said it, slippery slope. I've got an 11mm pump, .205 injectors, Stage 2 clutch (replaced when I did the auto-manual trans swap) and a Malone stage 3 tune. I love it. I tend to drive 'spirited' with the A/C on all the time (N Florida) and get 42 MPG consistently in semi urban driving (no interstate). Car got 38 MPG as an auto when I first got it.

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I looked at those after reading a thread, "Beef on a budget I believe."
It seemed that they are not exactly designed for what I intend.
I would prefer to raise the car and their compatibility with this is questionable. Otherwise, I would likely focus more that way.



On the condition and reality of the car and mechanically:
Daniel did the timing belt today, sigh!!!

After talking with Daniel it turns out that the injectors are sprint520's .205 µm or PP520's .214 µm he would have to pull "find" the paper work to be sure.
Most likely due to the PO's desires they would have been the sprint nozzles.
They have just over 110k on them.
Turbo bearings are good and there is no shaft play, however, the turbo is a sticking causing over-boost.
I need to disconnect the actuator lever and see if it's the turbo or actuator.
His recommendation would be the VNT 17 for an upgrade, the preferable recommendation would be to replace rather than rebuild.
He did say cleaning it is a viable alternative and would be cheaper in the short run.

I think that it must also be taken into consideration that the turbo has 282k on it and a new turbo would have a higher likelihood of living another 300k; while an re&re would likely rust and have the same issue sooner.

If I do replace the injectors pp520 would be the way to go in light of the possibility that the present ones are sprint520's, will wait to hear back on the definitive answer if he can find it.

He said he would dig up all the information he could for me.
He also said I got a good deal at $3k for a car that was well loved by the original owner; "a steal," were his exact words!
I already knew this

VNT17 and a tune if I really want more power.

I had .205 nozzles and a 18 PSI tune before my last upgrade. With 4 people in my Jetta Sedan as well as their luggage, she got 52 MPG with the cruise set at 75 MPH. Your car is already getting good mileage, and with a tune you could likely get even better mileage. Provided you keep your foot out of it. Right. Like that will actually happen.

Nevada_TDI said:

I had .205 nozzles and a 18 PSI tune before my last upgrade. With 4 people in my Jetta Sedan as well as their luggage, she got 52 MPG with the cruise set at 75 MPH. Your car is already getting good mileage, and with a tune you could likely get even better mileage. Provided you keep your foot out of it. Right. Like that will actually happen.

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I definitely like to get on it, however, I am also good at being an efficient driver.

I am one of those who can time the lights, except the few that are random, and cruise all the way through without stopping.
I like the ability to get up and go quickly and to have a little more on the interstate, that's about it.

My brother on the other hand has about $15k into performance mods on a Nissan SER that's not street legal whatsoever! F****** car flies when it is out of the garage
I'll drive his to go FAST!!

eddieleephd said:

TDIMeister, A reputable guy in SC, can't remember his name, did the swap.
Daniel Grindstaff has done the maintenance on this car for the original owner and recommended the guy who did the trans, therefore, I am not worried about the trans whatsoever.

I am looking at replacing the turbo as the car has 282k, I believe it is original beings Daniel hasn't mentioned that being replaced.
Fuel mileage now is good 46-52 highway depending on how I drive it.
I would like a bit more power, not a tremendous amount.

I would love to get 58 mpg, that I realize is mostly driving style and a decent tune.
I will not sacrifice performance for mileage, I just believe that I can have my cake and eat it too provided I am reasonable, and thorough.

I am mostly happy with my present fuel mileage, would like more of course, and would like a bit more umph when I want it.

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HI,

I actually think you could get 58 MPG (or VERY close without too much trouble ....).

If the 52 MPG is doable with what you have , I think if you upgrade tires to Hankook Kinergy in P205 75R15 and run it at 51 PSI cold that will add 8% to your MPG due to the OD effect of the larger tires bringing you to about 56.16 MPG . (to save $$ , get the bigger new tires when the old ones wear out ).

Then upgrade your intercooler to the $100 ebay SMIC and a BRM (I got 1 for about $75) intake manifold and that is good for 1-2 mpg (see my fuelly logs .... the back to back 56 MPG tanks I had were after I upgraded to the BRM intake and better SMIC .... fuel mileage after that is still somewhat higher than before the additions).

If that doesn't get you there, I think a bigger downpipe ( I see you have a 2.5" cat back) may get you the rest of the way ... IF not you may have to go 3" turbo back and unplug the cat ....(I am assuming the cat is plugged up by now?).

I think that should get you there (of course make sure your base car is in good shape ... good alignment , timing , filters etc...).

Andrew

Andrew

The taller tires won't add 8% to your MPG's. You'll have to correct your odometer reading by some % (not necessarily 8%) to get accurate MPG calculations, but it won't actually increase the MPG that amount.

At the operating conditions where efficiency is a concern, the intake manifold, intercooler and exhaust are nowhere near limiting factors. The stock components are more than adequate for high MPG's (assuming the CAT isn't plugged). "Upgrading" the intake/intercooler/exhaust also won't likely hurt the MPG's either, but will lighten your wallet so it depends on what your goals are.

There are several examples of more/less stock ALH's returning upper 50's for MPG's if you go look back in the archives.

Fix_Until_Broke said:

Andrew

The taller tires won't add 8% to your MPG's. You'll have to correct your odometer reading by some % (not necessarily 8%) to get accurate MPG calculations, but it won't actually increase the MPG that amount.

At the operating conditions where efficiency is a concern, the intake manifold, intercooler and exhaust are nowhere near limiting factors. The stock components are more than adequate for high MPG's (assuming the CAT isn't plugged). "Upgrading" the intake/intercooler/exhaust also won't likely hurt the MPG's either, but will lighten your wallet so it depends on what your goals are.

There are several examples of more/less stock ALH's returning upper 50's for MPG's if you go look back in the archives.

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Thanks for this post. Here you can see that the developer has thought about how to calibrate the nozzles and turbo in the software, coordinated with the hardware. You practice the hammer mod and co and in the end you wonder that the consumption is unsatisfactory. I've never done that in 20 years. But I have already tuned a lot of hardware converted TDI.

I believe IBW has it figured out, 11mm IP, .184 nozzles, and a vnt-15 turbo. I don't know what level of tune he has in his wagon, but he gets great FE and a smile every time he goes full chat/throttle.
Like everyone has already said, if you get a vnt-17 turbo then you are going to want a 3 bar MAP to use all 24 PSI available, a stronger clutch to carry it, bigger nozzles, and of course a new tune to make it all work.
I have upgraded hardware 3 or 4 times, tunes three or more times, clutch, etc.
It gets expensive quickly, I know.

So I've been assuming something I shouldn't. Do you have a boost gauge, or are you pulling boost from a log?
If you're pulling boost from a log then you have to subtract about 14psi for ambient.
I have a gauge on my column and it only reads forced air.
So if you're getting 34 psi boost on a log then you're really getting 20 and if it's 38 Your getting 24.

The 17 is a little laggy, however, better for higher pressures.

I ran a Dieselgeek short shifter for years, long enough to wear it out. I liked it a lot, but other drivers struggled a bit because the side-to-side motion was so small. People would grab 5th instead of 3rd. When it was done I put in a TT shifter. I still like that a lot, although I'm thinking about going back to a DG on my Golf if I upgrade the 02A shifter to 02J.

One can shift forcibly into gear or be gentle. It’s your choice, regardless.