Pinzgauer 718 - TD - P90

Is this a good use of a TDI?

  • Nope. Way stupid.

    Votes: 2 18.2%
  • Coulda done better.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Awesome, but not as nice as mine.

    Votes: 1 9.1%
  • OMG I want one too!

    Votes: 8 72.7%

  • Total voters
    11

Hecklebone

Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Location
Denver
TDI
2.0
Hello Everyone,
This is my first post here @ TDIClub. Having looked around at other threads, this seemed to be the right place for this. By starting a new thread, I hope to document my project soup to nuts. I am excited, and I hope you are too. My project is a 1987 Styer Puch Pinzgauer 718 (P90). If you are curious about TD Pinzgauers look at http://pinzgauer-td.com/
This is one of a small group used by the Delta Force to take the Haditha dam in Desert Storm as part of Task Force 20. I have cut off numerous gun mounts and I occasionally find shell cases.

In Iraq:

UK version:

At auction:

New home:

Whazza?

Starboard:

10,000' drive:
YouTube vieo
Inside with the engine:
YouTube video
Day before it died:
YouTube Video

It has a VAG D24T (100% mechanical) diesel engine (no intercooler) with about 110bhp & 166 lb ft. A ZF 4HP22 is behind it, which vibrates tremendously in third gear.
Last week the camshaft stopped spinning while the crank did not. Oddly the timing belt is pristine. A deeper issue could be my timing it for altitude in Denver. Rather than rebuilt it, I have been looking for replacements.
I considered the EU VW 2.5L TDI -i5, and the BMW M/N57s - i6. It seems that a 2.0 - 4 cylinder US version is the best way to go when weighing all the considerations. I am frequently in the EU, but I don't feel like bringing back a engine bit by bit that isn't EPA certified, despite it being cleaner than the existing engine. The 2.0 i4 TDI gives me about 25% increase in HP and 42% increase in torque.

Yes, there are complexities:
• Computer controlled with all the usual sensors, throttle controller, etc etc
o Programable ECU
• Engine runs at 12V in a 24V system
o Figure out a 24v alternator, or
o Step up the voltage, halve the current.
• Oil pan & oil pickups too probably
• Change to electric fans for radiator
• Add liquid cooled intercooler with remote radiator
• Exhaust and intercooler piping.

So...questions:
1) 2.0 i4 TDI what you would choose given the very small space for the engine?
2) Where can I get a new or well remanufactured one?
3) Transmission is 4 speed auto, & I want to add a gear or two. Any reasonable, fittable trannys that might work? - or-
4) What if I rebuild the ZF 4HP22 tranny with stronger HP24 bits inside?

Let the games begin.
h.
 
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RSMS

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Dec 1, 2011
Location
Clearwater,FL
TDI
04 T-REG V-10 as a driver but too many others to list and always changing
Pretty cool, didnt realize you could import later model Pinz's. I have a 710k that is still air cooled petrol. Are 718's now importable or did you have to jump thru hoops to get it over here? I also am in the EU often and was thinking of possibly bringing another over. Have you tried the Pinz forum, I know there have been a few 710's and 712's retrofitted with diesels That might also be a good place to ask around.
 

mlemorie

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Location
Romulus Michigan
TDI
2004 Jetta
There have been a few of the I5 tdi's imported to the states, it wouldn't be hard to do at all. There is actually a passat wagon swap going on in this section using the 2.5 AEL. It should be within the first two pages as I read the updates on it not long ago at all. Cool little trucks for sure. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one, as it is probably the closest that I'll ever get to owning a Tatra multi axled monster.
 

Hecklebone

Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Location
Denver
TDI
2.0
Two issues to import:
1) Title work. I got mine with a SF 97 gov title, the army imported it.
2) Registration. Technically the EPA has a rolling 22 year exemption for emissions packages, less than that and you are done...unless you get someone at the dmv who doesn't care or likes Pinzs; and If you live where they test emissions, you must pass the test.

Even with all the paperwork it was a nightmare.
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
TDI
idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
It has a VAG D24T (100% mechanical) diesel engine (no intercooler)...
Last week the camshaft stopped spinning while the crank did not. Oddly the timing belt is pristine. A deeper issue could be my timing it for altitude in Denver. Rather than rebuilt it, I have been looking for replacements.
I considered the EU VW 2.5L TDI -i5, and the BMW M/N57s - i6. It seems that a 2.0 - 4 cylinder US version is the best way to go when weighing all the considerations.
The VAG D24T is the same one used in the Volvo diesels? That's how I'd go.
 

markd89

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Location
Los Angeles
TDI
1978 VW Bus 1Z TDI
Cool project!

Curious what the top cruising speed is with the stock engine/trans and at how many RPMs?

Mark
 

Hecklebone

Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Location
Denver
TDI
2.0
Yes, LugNut, same as in the Volvos. I have yet to find someone to reman/upgrade it, and...this might sound odd, but ideally i'd like to switch to chains for timing instead if rubber belts. A lot of water and debris can get into the engine compartment.

Mark, about 3200 rpm at 60mph from recollection.
 

kiwibru

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 21, 1999
Location
Distant island in WA. state
TDI
Golf 2-door, 2k Silver. Red RTDI now gone but not forgotten!
I had a soft-top Pinz 710M Radio version for two years. Cold blooded, air-cooled gas engine. Had to wear ear muffs if you valued your hearing. Unreal climber and actually a pretty comfy over the road ride. Know of several that were engine swapped with TDI engines. If that rig had been a diesel I would have kept it but it just did not fit in to the climate I live in. Engine was too darn cold and took for ever to warm up. Touchy throttle too as it uses dual carbs that are a bear to synchronize. It was a fun project...what you have found is much better. Betcha it cost a bit too!
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Hecklebone: You do not want a Volkswagen engine with chains. VW timing chains are one of the jokes of the automotive industry.

Given that...

Import a 2.5 R5 TDI from a Touareg. It's a PD, so you'd have the electronic control issues to deal with, but it has a sealed, engine oil lubricated gear train.

That said, the timing belted TDIs don't usually have a problem with being installed in offroad vehicles.

As far as the 2.4's failure, wouldn't be surprised if the pulley spun on the camshaft or something like that.
 

Hecklebone

Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Location
Denver
TDI
2.0
Thanks, makes sense. Any ideas or relationships that might help me import one? It my understanding that importing a complete 2.5 can be tough because there is no EPA cert for it; and it is less than 22 years old. I was considering having family in the UK take one apart and send me the pieces and I would reassemble it here.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
I don't have any good sources, but I believe just getting the engine through isn't a huge deal, it's getting a complete vehicle through that's tricky. And, you're not after a whole Touareg, you're after an engine with accessories, a wiring harness, and an ECU. Engine mounts may need to be fabricated, but the transmission bolt pattern should already be correct. Oh, and you'll have 174 hp, IIRC, instead of 110. That'll reduce the need for more ratios, unless you're trying to gear down.

If you ARE trying to gear down... there's a few options. May be able to figure out how to use the Touareg transmission, too - it's a fairly conventional pickup truck-like transfer case setup (although with a center differential, so it behaves like an Audi).
 

mcneil

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Location
Pasadena, CA
TDI
2010 Golf TDI 4dr, 2001 Jetta TDI, Jeep TDI project
If you decide to go with a new automatic, I'd recommend the GM 4L65e or 4L70e (same controls). It adapts to anything. Being able to remove the bellhousing saves several inches of clearance over the typical GM patterns, which can help in tight spaces.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
You can do that, but you'll have to find an appropriate transmission.

Here's a question, do you need an automatic or manual? If manual is fine, Jeg's sells a bellhousing to adapt any VAG watercooled engine (except for a wasserboxer and maybe a VR6) to a GM-application T-5. So, find a 4WD manual S-10...

Also, if you're trying to avoid electronics, in that engine family, here's what I'd do...

ALH (1998-2003 New Beetle, 1999.5-2003 Golf/Jetta) head
BHW (2004-2005 Passat) block with balance shaft delete
Mechanical VE pump (usually an early Cummins 4BT pump modified with parts from a VW pump)

The other thing to look at is the 2.4 non-turbo 5-cylinder used in Canadian Eurovans. Not a TDI (it's indirect injection, and non-turbo), but you could add a turbo without too much trouble (it already has the oil squirters), and get the pump modified with a boost enrichment device most likely. That engine is basically a taller, 5-cylinder version of the 2.4 6-cylinder you have now.
 
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PeterV

TDIClub Enthusiast, HO5G Doyen & Zen Master
Joined
Aug 17, 2000
Location
So, NH.
TDI
2000 Jetta 5 sp.
There is a TDI version here in Danville, NH.

Same owner that had stacked Turbos on his A3 TDI.
 

Hecklebone

Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Location
Denver
TDI
2.0
Interesting bhtooefr. I have a new VE pump on the existing engine. I will think on this.
BTW today was able to get the rocker cover of the D24T, camshaft broke in three places:
D24T.com Link
 
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bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Well, it needs to be a 4-cylinder pump that's suitable for direct injection applications, hence the 4BT pump, if you're using it on an ALH.
 

Hecklebone

Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Location
Denver
TDI
2.0
Mcneil: I'd recommend the GM 4L65e or 4L70e

I would really like that. I see lots of posts questioning if there is an adapter from the VW 4cly to the GM, but no answers...other than have one made.

Anyone know if any are already commercially available?

I would like to put a gearstar beefed up 4L65e behind the 2.0L TDI.
 

Hecklebone

Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Location
Denver
TDI
2.0
Gents,

I really like the idea of an all mechanical TDI setup. Main reason is that the Pinzgauer is 24vdc, as opposed to 12vdc. While I would like to be able to have a ECU ROM emulator to change programs, I did this on another engine and it turned out to be a nightmare to build it all out myself.

I am partial to new parts, so I get a long life out of the new engine and know quality.
038105021E Crankshaft - $126.00
038103101AM TDI Short Block (OEM Part) - $1799.00
ALH Complete Cylinder Head - $429.00
Colt Camshaft - $600
VNT-17/22 hybrid turbo for BEW - $1369
Bosio injectors - $600

I have a VE pump setup for a 6 cylinder. I can get the output bits to convert it to four. Two questions here:
1) Is there a mount for this?
2) What type of fuel lines run to the injectors? Will I have to make 5 steel lines, or are flexible versions available that will handle the pressure.

I am talking with GearStar engines to put a GM 4L80E automatic transmission behind it, need a custom adapter. BTW, I need to get the ZF 4HP22 tranny out to see how the output is setup to the transfer case...hopefully straight forward, but that would be an exception.

Any thoughts on all of this?
 

mcneil

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Location
Pasadena, CA
TDI
2010 Golf TDI 4dr, 2001 Jetta TDI, Jeep TDI project
Mcneil: I'd recommend the GM 4L65e or 4L70e

I would really like that. I see lots of posts questioning if there is an adapter from the VW 4cly to the GM, but no answers...other than have one made.

Anyone know if any are already commercially available?

I would like to put a gearstar beefed up 4L65e behind the 2.0L TDI.
4LXXe transmissions are so cheap it almost makes the cost of a controller bearable. :D

I'll share my design if you decide to go that route, the part & drawing are in Solidworks if you want to modify it. It requires a SAE #8 bellhousing adapter, which you can get from VW industrial applications. If you're a machinist who knows a good forklift junkyard, you can probably get it all cheap, but otherwise you're looking at a few hundred bucks per component.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Out of curiosity, whose ALH head are you getting? $429 sounds extremely low, especially for new. Like Prothe chinash!t low.

IDParts is $900 for an ALH head, and that's AMC, which is still not exactly good. (Better than chinash!t, but not exactly good.)

And, your VE pump is set up for indirect injection. Not high enough pressure rating for a TDI, and asking it to feed a TDI is asking it to grenade. May be possible with heavy modifications to get it going on a 5-cylinder indirect injection engine, but don't run it on a TDI.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
RUN AWAY!

Do not buy anything from that vendor, everything they sell is Chinese crap (and they're one of the many aliases of Prothe).

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=320500

Anyway, as far as changing programs... that can actually be done on an ALH without too much trouble, as long as it's a 2000 or newer - some tuners offer reflashers.
 
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bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
For cylinder heads?

Probably 1stVWParts.com. They're a VW dealer in WA, meaning you're getting genuine parts, but they have really good pricing as far as genuine parts go.

Part number for the ALH head is 038103351B. Looks like they want $1421, although that part number isn't a reman, and therefore has no core charge.
 

mogly

Veteran Member
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Sarnia, ON, Canada
TDI
MKIV TDI + B5.5V AVF/01E
Good grief DON'T buy anything from Prothe! Price in this case certainly directly affects quality.

I agree with your decision to go mechanical in this application. Curious, how heavy is this rig?
 

markd89

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Location
Los Angeles
TDI
1978 VW Bus 1Z TDI
About 7000 pounds empty.

What about Gex engines? Are they any good?
I've read about GEX on thesamba.com and suggest you do also.

Better.. there is a Vendors section here on Tdiclub which I'd highly recommend. These are people who have done repeat business with the members here and you can see what kind of reputation they have.
 

Hecklebone

Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Location
Denver
TDI
2.0
Ah yes. Thank you.
I havent been involved with VWs since before the internet. I had a gen 1 Scirrocco that i totalled in high school. Interesting (sad) how much crap is out there.
 
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