New to TDI : Thinking about Diesel Generator

A company in the U.K. is selling complete 'industrial' TDI engines, complete with the ECU, injection pump, etc. They say these engines are mechanically similar to the automotive engines but with some tuning modifications and a change in the rated power and torque figures to optimise the engine for its role. Allow me to quote a synopsis of the ad here; but I'm arranging to have the ad scanned into a graphic file for those who may be interested in learning more about these motors. "About a year and a half ago, Volkswagen presented the industrial version of its four-cylinder, 1.9L TDI diesel engine, derived from the turbocharged/intercooled, DI automotive diesel now used in many VW cars. Following intensive development work, the company has now presented the new 'AFD' industrial version for the 1.9L TDI engine. The AFD has modified pistons and fuel injection system, allowing it to meet Euro 2 emissions limits, Volkswagen states. While power and torque can be readily adapted to specific applications via software changes at the EDC electronic injection control system, maximum power, maximum torque and rated readily adapted to specific applications via software changes at the EDC electronic injection control system, maximum power, maximum torque and rated speeds have been optimized to industrial applications. Standard ratings of the AFD diesel are hence 60kW @ 3300 rpm, compared to the 66 kW @ 4000 rpm rating of the automitive engine at its launch, with peak torque now at 205 Nm @ 1800 rpm intead of 202 Nm @ 1900 rpm of the original specification. Volkswagen reports that the AFD engine has been tested for emissions by the TUV Essen technical inspectorate. The official tests gave particulate emission levels of 0.24 g/kWh and NOx levels of 6.53 g/kWh. Minimum specific fuel consumption is quoted at just over 207 g/kWh. The TDI industrial engine employs a Bosch fuel injection pump with EDC electronic control and producing injection pressures of 800 to 900 bar. Standard equipment includes a wiring loom and all necessary sensors for the electronic control unit. The AFD diesel retains the cylinder block of Volkswagen's earlier ADE 1.9L IDI industrial diesel, with bore and stroke of 79.5 x 95.5 m, giving a swept volume of 1896 cc. Crankshaft bearings were optimized to reduce noise and cope with the DI engine's higher power output, the company notes." Marshall's Industrial Ltd. Hithercroft Road, Wallingford, Oxfordshire, OX10 9DG Tel: 01491 834666 Fax: 01491 839777 -------------- Martin.Schulte@Pironet.de TDI pages Hi Martin, Thanks for an informative WWW page about what's needed to swap a 1.9l TDI into a T3. I thought you might be interested in knowing about the VW diesel mailing list. You can subsecribe by: Send mail to: wclistserve@velocity.bc.ca In the message body enter: subscribe VWDieselL or for digest mode: subscribe vw-diesel Your page generated quite some interest, and I posted an attempt to English translation to the list. Do you mind if I put the translation on the WWW? I was curious if you could avoid the special left motor mount in any way. Was the 1.9 TDI ever installed in longitudinal (la"ngeweise?) position, like the 1.6 TD in the old Passats and Audis? Those had a different manifold with the turbo out of the way from the motor mount. Is there a problem both with KKK and Garett turbos? Last year a friend put a 1.9TD with a KKK turbo in a T3 with the original mount. He said that on the 1.9 TD the KKK turbo was much smaller than the Garett. Cheers, Martin --------------- > I recall from looking at the brake specific fuel consumption > (efficiency) plots of engine RPMs vs load settings with bsfc > "contours", that the 1.6l TD has about the same peak efficiency as the > normally aspirated versions. However, there is a significantly > broader "plateau" where this peak resides at. So in many driving > scenarios with the turbo it should actually give a little bit of > improved fuel economy. This has been my experience as well - I got > around 40 mpg with my old normally aspirated 1.6l diesel but have been > seeing increased fuel economy on my turbo - even though it's probably > able to kick out around double the power of the normally aspirated. Like you say above, the engine efficiency varies with operating conditions. Just to be more specific, The peak efficiency occurs at a particular rpm AND load. Generally the rpm is somewhere near the torque peak, and the load is pretty near full load (like 50-70% or so). For the VW diesel if I remeber right the rpm is about 2000 and the load MEP (Mean Effective Pressure) 6MPa I think. For a NA Diesel the efficiency drops dramatically near the the smoke limit. In a TD the turbo pumps more air the higher the load, so you don't "hit a wall" like the smoke limit of the NA engine, and the efficiency curve generally is flatter up to higher MEP's. In principle the addition of a turbo can also move the peak efficiency rpm, but in practice that seems to be less of an effect than the MEP. > I'm seeing about 44 mpg average on my audi-intercooled 1.6l TD, but I'm > quite sure it's running rich at certain points the way I have the injection > pump setup (it could probably benefit from fine-tuning) Peak efficiency occurs at 45 mph in 5th gear in my Quantum. Clearly I drive faster than that. At around 3000rpm (70-75 mph) i get about 45 mpg (40 with a canoe on top). This was with the old 2" exhaust, missing muffler. I'll be looking to see if I have a drop in mpg with the new one (both resonator and muffler, and it has a (short) 1.5" section). For comparison the Quantum is heavier (a few hundred lbs) than the A1 and A2 cars (but about the same as an A3 at 2600lbs), but is longer and more streamlined (less air drag). EPA mpg I think is 40/44. For entertainment I played with calculating the theoretical mpg figures for my Diesel Westy based on engine specific efficiency and measured drag figures. At normal road speed calculated mpg comes quite close to actual measured. Also interesting: if you drive the camper van at peak efficiency you could in theory get 60mpg! (This corresponds to about 30-35mph in 4th steady state, no hills, no wind, no speed changes) Needless to say I haven't tried that. There aren't any long hill less roads here. The calculations is on one of my WWW pages. > I wonder if someone stuck a 200 g/kWh TDI motor in a Rabbit (VW IDI diesels > are more peaked at around 260 g/kWh) how much the actual mileage figures > would improve? You'd likely have to change the tranny ratios to get the low gearing needed for peak eff MEP. > Also I wonder how good the figures could get with a > re-engineered IDI diesel (there may be just a few more tweaks I have in > mind! The newer VE pumps (like on the 1.9l TD I just bought) have a load dependent timing solenoid. That should give some twiddle room. Basic principle is to advance timing at high loads to give more time to pump in and burn the larger fuel quantity. Unfortunately I don't have the control module. Anyone know of a wrecked 1995 or later TD car I could get the module from? Cheers, Martin

Click to expand...

PeterV said:

Many questions but this unit is in NH and does work... N1DAS got the unit going and it does produce electricity. This unit is on a mountain top and uses to power a AT&T microwave station. The property was sold and bought by a ham radio operator. Dave N1DAS can give you specifics.

Click to expand...

compu_85 said:

3600 RPM is not a lot for a TDI. The redline on the automotive versions is 5000 RPM, and the fuel cut is at 5200 RPM. What would 3600 RPM in 5th gear be... defintally autobahn speed there (where the TDI was designed to run)

-Jason

Click to expand...

n1das said:

The genset in the pic is a KS-22344 40kW Engine Alternator.

It's been a while since I've fired up that unit. The battery charger died in it last summer during a major thunderstorm, so the system is totally dead until I get around to working on it. It had previously sat abandoned from 1996 until I restored it to service in April 2002. It's on my list of projects for the summer.

The genset has a pair of 12V deep cycle batteries in it to provide power for cranking the engine and to run the contol system electronics. The control system operates off the batteries all the time and the charger circuit simply keeps the battery charged when AC power is available. Something died in the battery charger circuit, so now the system is totally dead. Hopefully it's not the main power transformer in the charger circuit 'cause I'd have a hard time finding a replacement for it. Fortunately I have the complete schematic for the charger system. In the worse case scenario, I may have to design a workaround for the charger system.

The engine in the pic is a 6-cylinder normally aspirated (non turbo) 2.4L IDI VW-Audi diesel engine. It's a 6-cylinder version of the old 4-cylinder 1.6L IDI VW Rabbit engine. It roars along at 3600 RPM, cranking a 2-pole alternator, putting out up to 45kW at 240VAC 60Hz, single-phase output. The engine is the same VW diesel engine that Volvo used in some of its cars sold in the USA in the 1983-84 timeframe. Volvo called it the D24 engine. There supposedly was a turbo version, the D24T.

The genset was sized to replicate commercial AC power coming into a phone company microwave bunker. The radio equipment ran on a 24V bank of huge wet cells (each holds 9 gallons of electrolyte) and a bank of recifiers operating off AC power were used to keep the 24V battery system topped off. During a major AC power outage, the phone company had enough battery capacity to run the microwave equipment for almost a full day before AC power was critically needed to keep the batteries charged. The generator set is designed to automatically fire up upon interruption of commercial AC power, do a 1 minute warm-up, then automatically operate the building's AC transfer switch and connect the building's load to the genset. After the system senses restoration of commercial AC power, it "holds over" for an additional 30 minutes to make sure commerical power is stable before transferring the building load back to commerical AC power. Then the genset runs unloaded for an additional 3 minutes for cool-down, and then automatically shuts down. Periodic maintenance runs have to be done manually. There is also a backup manual run kit installed in case the main control system fails.

The engine in the pic looks like it's standing vertically on its flywheel. That's because it IS mounted vertically! The genset manufacturer (Morrison-Knudsen Co., now out of business) basically buys the basic engine ("short block"?) from VW and modifies it for vertical operation. A custom crankshaft and oil pans (side + bottom) are used. The oil filter is remoted for easy access. There is also a pressurized pre-lub system to help prevent dry starts. A belt-driven fan is added for the radiator above the engine. A belt-driven lift-pump has been added to aid fuel delivery to the injector pump. The injector pump has been modified by venting an internal chamber for vertical operation and a servo setup has been added to electronically govern it at 3600 RPM. The CCV system has been modified for vertical operation and includes an oil collection bottle that has to be emptied once in a while. It's just like a CCV filter mod to a TDI engine! The oil pan has a AC-powered heater in it and there's a Kim HotStart heater on one of the coolant hoses. The coolant heater is a lot like a TDIheater!

The 6-cylinder version of the genset is rated at 40kW, continuous duty. It guzzles 3.6 gallons fuel per hour with a full 40kW load and about 2 gallons/hour with no load at 3600RPM. It's not the most fuel-efficient but old Ma Bell just wanted something that worked and met their requirements. The vertical configuration was probably needed to save precious space in phone company bunker buildings. The price tag on this system in 1984 when the system was first installed is $33000.00.

I've got the service manual for the genset and the drawings (no pics) also show a 4-cylinder 24kW and 28kW version, depending on the particular alternator used. The general engine setup is a 1.9L IDI VW diesel engine. I noticed from the drawing that the general layout closely resembles a 1Z TDI engine. Maybe this engine is one of our TDI's ancestors. Could it be an engine used in an 85-92 Jetta? I don't know the history here, I'm guessing but I can spot the resemblance to our TDI engines.

The genset has the old "Bell System GUARDIAN" and "Western Electric" logos on it from the old Ma Bell days. I searched on the internet for Ma Bell related stuff to find informaton on the genset and discovered to my surprise that the same old Western Electric from the old Ma Bell days is STILL in business today! They are totally out of the phone company business but still manufacture specialized vacuum tubes for high-powered broadcast radio & TV transmitters. There's still enough of a niche market for these parts to keep Western Electric in business and still manufacturing the same parts they've been making for many years. It's like technology in a time capsule! http://www.westernelectric.com

This genset restoration project was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back and made me trade out of my gas-guzzling Subaru WRX and into a TDI! I found TDIclub.com by googling "VW" and "DIESEL" while searching for information on the genset. For engine-related stuff, my searches kept bringing me back to TDIclub.com where I did a lot of surfing and read the TDIFAQ.

In order to get comfortable working on the genset, I had to study the service manual which included a VW Diesel engine self-study course. It's probably the same self-study course that was published for the old 1.6L IDI VW Rabbit engine. The TDIFAQ also helped. I was hooked on DIESEL at this point. The more I thought about it, the more I realized I needed to get out of my GAS-guzzling Subaru WRX and into a TDI as soon as possible. I was logging the same miles I log in my TDI, around 1k miles/week, so driving the WRX was expensive. Getting out of my WRX and into a TDI was no-brainer after this genset restoration project!

Friends of mine initially thought I was crazy for getting out of my WRX and into a TDI. Some said "Diesels $uck! Are you sure you want a DIESEL car? Aren't they noisy, slow, stinky, can't start 'em in winter, and hard to find fuel for them?" I have since educated them about TDIs. They've ridden with me several times over the years and also love the modded performance. Now with GAS prices headed through the roof, they're all now interested in TDIs!

Click to expand...

DieselDoug said:

Thanks for posting this! Brings back memories of some of the Telephone plant (Central Office) stuff we used to have at Bell Canada that was still in service until the early 2000's.

Despite this post being 10 years old, I fast forward to today and think out aloud that for reasonably low cost, using a 20 HP rated American Rotary Phase 3 Phase Converter and some transformers, one could build a low cost unit that could support up to 550/600 Volts of power at 10-12 amp total load. The drawback is that these converters aren't cheap, but they do last a long time.

I would also take advantage of today's modern overdrive transmissions (6 speed) to get the RPM and gear ratio right. Could run the diesel under load and run less than 1,800/3,600. using the front wheel CV output shafts, run two single leg 110/120V electric generator motors and then use a Rotary Phase converter to generate the third.

When this post was first published, VW's BEW model 1.9L TDI proved to be reliable engine (over time) with "limited" electronics and emissions (just an EGR) that probably could be tuned to last a long time.

Would be a fun kind of project.

I think

Click to expand...