TDI swap vibrations in Volvo destroys dual mass flywheels

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Swapping around [very] used parts may lead you to be chasing your tail, unfortunately. Your idle compensation numbers are not great, but not so bad that I think that is your problem.
 

d24tdi

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Agreed, those idle compensation values could be better but no smoking gun for the kind of problems you are seeing. I have had a couple with much worse values than that and no real symptoms.

Interested to hear what happens with the other motor in it.
 

nicklockard

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Watching this thread out of pure curiosity. WTH's causing it? I wanna know!

I had a BMW 318ti that did this. It was due to: both trans mounts were trashed and 1 engine mount was on its last legs. Pretty much all the rubber bits were dust. (It was pretty embarrassing. The shop guy said my entire drive line was hanging by threads) Hope you resolve it.
 
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cj.surr

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Well, swapping the engine gave a result I wasn't expecting. Vibrations are still there, but in the 1700rpm area where it was formerly the most intense, instead of getting worse with load, it actually smooths out. (low load still has a strong vibration).

Very weird outcome, I'm leaning more towards a harmonic issue with the rear axle now based on how it's been feeling in the car. I'm not sure how that correlates to destroying flywheels, but possible it is amplifying a normal torsional vibration and sending it back to the flywheel even stronger.

I told myself I would give up on this swap if swapping the engine didn't fix the problem. But now I feel like I have to at least try swapping the rear axle. When I did the engine swap originally, I regeared it and added a locker and poly bushings. It seems like the only thing left to rule out.
 

turbobrick240

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I'm not sure why changing the engine would change the vibrations if the rear axle is the culprit. I'd be leaning toward motor mounting or adapter plate alignment.
 

cj.surr

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I should have mentioned that the vibration is mostly the same, only different at that one rpm. If I lug it at very low rpm in high gear (1200 or so), I get a bad chattering and vibration that is clearly coming from the rear end. That doesn't necessarily mean the rear end is the culprit but it's a suspect.

I've already indicated my adapter bellhousing pilot and it's on center
 

turbobrick240

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Stick with it, I'm sure you'll have it figured out soon. :) You didn't waste any time getting that engine swapped. You should post a few photos of the car- none of mine were beauty queens, but they were good, solid cars.
 

cj.surr

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I took a video of the rear axle while accelerating up through 5th. The vibration was strong in 4th and 5th gear, but I don't really see any evidence of excessive rear axle movement. I thought the pinion might be oscillating under load (I witnessed this with the car on the lift, loading in 5th gear with the brakes). Funny that you can see the sway bar vibrate when the torsional vibration comes on in 5th gear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ58rdFXmDo&feature=youtu.be

Also, after getting some more miles on the setup, I've realized the vibration with the replacement engine isn't really all that different. It might be slightly smoother around 1700rpm under heavy load, but that's it. Could be due to the replacement engine not making as much boost (I have to check out the N75 or something).
 
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turbobrick240

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I'd check the tightness of the U bolts on the axle- think I might have seen some unusual movement there.
 

d24tdi

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It's still tough for me to see how any issue downstream of the transmission could push enough sheer force or an angry enough harmonic resonance all the way back through the transmission gear interfaces, bearings, input shaft splines, and clutch disc to destroy a DMF, without tearing up every other part on the way first. If it were a bad vibe from the rear axle I would expect it to destroy U-joints, trans roller bearings, shatter synchros, and the other typical results from that long before it wrecked the flywheel on the engine.

However, now that you have ruled out so many of the other possibilities including the entire engine, I suppose nothing is out of the question so may as well go after whatever seems to be suspect. That buzzing swaybar does suggest the vibes are making their way back there at least, or originating there. And the fact that this occurs most in the higher gears where the driveline has more leverage against the clutch/flywheel/engine is an interesting point too.

Have you ever tried running a rubber guibo or other kind of driveshaft isolator with the various driveline setups you have used? Many of the stock manual gasser Volvos had them at the trans to driveshaft connection, along with 4-cylinder diesel Mercedes, etc. Probably wouldn't be hard to put one in, especially if you are running a stock style two piece driveshaft in it now. If it's sending vibration upstream from the axle that might dampen it, or it might destroy the guibo, but in any case it would give you more clues to work with as far as what direction the problem is coming from.

Given that you have had this same problem with multiple different adapter plates and transmissions, including the mass produced DCS one with a Toyota trans I would dismiss the possibility of it being related to adapter plate alignment. If that were the case then the problem would have at least changed in some respect as you switched between the three setups.

Agree after all this work that you have to be close to the solution, and this is a neat swap you have so no doubt it will be worthwhile running the problem down. When you find it, good chance it will be something simple that we'll all kick ourselves for not thinking of.
 
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cj.surr

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I wouldn't be too surprised if the DMF was the first to go with a torsional vibration, regardless of where it is originated. The DMF did a fairly good job of damping the vibration for a short time, and considering how violent it is, it required a lot of energy to be absorbed.

My first setup with the Volvo M47 transmission had a guibo. No real difference that I noticed. Currently I'm running a single piece 3" driveshaft with the T5. I previously ran a modified stock 2-piece driveshaft with the T5 and there was no noticeable difference in the vibration.

I'm actually not sure of what to try next. I think I will try new stock axle bushings (where the trailing arm mounts). I currently have polyurethane ones that I installed during the initial TDI swap. I have very little hope of that curing anything though. I'm not sure I have the motivation to swap the rear axle, considering the low likelihood of it being the source of the problem. I also don't have a spare axle that would be a direct swap on-hand.
 

turbobrick240

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It probably wouldn't be worth the hassle for you, but I have a complete(except for rust loss) '84 245 D24 diesel with M46 that you'd be welcome to haul off for free. The engine ran great when I parked it several years ago. Located near Augusta.
 

cj.surr

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That offer is actually pretty tempting. I appreciate that. I have no experience with those engines, how do you feel they compare to the TDI? I would assume 15-20% less FE but a little smoother and simpler. I believe they have head issues, especially if overheated?
 

turbobrick240

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The D24 was a decent enough engine, although I much prefer the Volvo red block engines. Although it's an I6, smooth isn't really a word I'd use to describe it. Smoky, loud, lethargic are better descriptors, lol. I think I got about 30 mpg with it. I bought it with the intention of converting it to a greasecar, but acquiring the grease turned out to be more of a hassle than I wanted to deal with. Unfortunately, the bellhousing on the diesel M46 only mates up with 5 and 6 cyl. tdi's. The D24 design was a bit of a kludge, just tacking on an extra cylinder to the audi 5cyl diesel of the time. But they held up relatively well and were used in VWAG vans in europe for quite some time.
 

cj.surr

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Sounds about right, I suppose. I may still be interested. I love the tdi motor but it just doesn't want to seem to work in this car. And I would much rather spend the summer road tripping and camping than working more on the car.
 

turbobrick240

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Well, you're welcome to it. I'd recommend a trailer over a tow dolly if possible. The engine has an ancient timing belt, so that's the first thing you'd want to change. I think it's rated at 80 hp, so it's not that terrible power wise. The car body is basically beyond repair, but most of the parts are good.
 

cj.surr

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What do you guys think about trying a BHW (or other) engine with a balance shaft? I'm wondering if that would be a big help with the torsional vibes. It would be a pain to make new mounts, oil pan, wiring harness, but at least the trans should still bolt up.
 

d24tdi

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Interesting idea but unfortunately I doubt it would make much of a difference in terms of torsional vibration, in fact it could make it worse if anything since the BHW puts out quite a bit more power than the old AHU and its torque pulses would be significantly stronger. Balance shafts really are intended to mitigate reciprocating mass vibration (the heavier pistons due to larger displacement and oil cooling galleys necessitate the shafts for the BHW, relative to the lighter 1.9L pistons), not so much torsional vibration which is addressed instead by a DMF or a heavy SMF.

BHWs also are known for difficult vibration/resonance problems even in the stock longitudinal cars where it's installed, with all the factory's own attempts at mitigation (hydraulic mounts, etc). It has a tendency for bad torsional resonances in AWD/manual installations with SMFs especially, seems like prop shafts and differentials amplify it so it might be tough to deal with in your setup too. I have one now on the stand that I'm prepping to go into my Audi Allroad 6-speed this summer, but I'm going to be running all factory parts (stock European market DMF, etc) to keep the vibes down as much as I can. It'll be expensive, and I still expect to have to do some careful work with the mounts and exhaust to make it not annoying to drive and listen to. Without the factory-proven vehicle interface parts I think it would be even more of a challenge. Though on the other hand plenty of folks seem to run them in pickup truck conversions and not complain about vibes. They might just not care, though.

Another thing, if you want to keep balance shafts in a BHW rather than just convert to a regular oil pump, you have to spend almost 2 grand for the geared BSM setup to eliminate the guaranteed to fail chain drive system. Overall my seat of the pants guess is that with the BHW you'd do lot of work and end up spending thousands of dollars to not gain much against vibration and NVH.

That offer of a D24 would definitely solve the vibration problems, they are smooth runners, and good engines overall. I've had a few. But you might not like the power after running a chipped TDI in the same car, by comparison the D24 will be slower, heavier, etc. Fine around town but climbing long hills at highway speed with a loaded vehicle is a real challenge for them. Usually if they are running loud and smoky it's because the timing is set wrong, they're pretty refined and quiet and clean when they are set up right, but they are never fast. The turbo versions are much stronger runners so that could be an option.

One other idea you might think about if you wanted to bite the bullet on a completely different engine setup would be the 2.5L 5-cylinder TDI. They are starting to show up from Europe for pretty affordable prices now. Frans (dutch auto parts) could probably source a complete swap kit with harness, ecu, etc from an Audi or a Volvo V70 with the higher output setups that had 140hp from the factory. The back of the engine is the same as the old D24 so they would bolt up to an M46/M47 diesel bellhousing (or one of those attached to a T5) and could use off the shelf clutch parts. Would have to build a set of mounts and modify the pan but otherwise it would almost be a bolt in install in a 240, plenty of folks overseas have done it. With an extra cylinder, torsional vibes would be much improved or eliminated and you'd get a lot more power and torque out of the deal as well. The engines seem to be well thought of by the folks that have used them, no real problem areas and much more refined than the 4 cylinders.
 
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cj.surr

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So this problem is actually mostly solved, after 3 years of chasing it down. I bought a BMW m21 diesel and was planning on swapping it into the volvo if the last few possibilities were eliminated and the vibrations were still there. The last thing on my list was changing out my polyurethane axle-trailing arm bushings with stock rubber. And it completely eliminated the full-chassis resonance I was experiencing from 1400-2100 RPM. There is still some vibration from the engine, but it is pretty manageable. I would say the total NVH in that range was reduced by 75%. It was pretty unexpected, as the bushings were in great shape, but I suppose that extra bit of damping from softer rubber was needed. I installed the poly bushings at the same time as doing my initial tdi + m47 swap 3 years ago.

Very glad that I don't have to swap in a 6cyl diesel, as I otherwise was very happy with the tdi. I think some better engine/trans mounts might be able to smooth out the remaining vibration but it's definitely tolerable as-is.
 

TDIMeister

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Yeah, poly bushings don't really get along with Diesels.

I didn't read up the entire thread, but did you get to the bottom of the vibrations eating your flywheel(s)? I don't think this will be related to or fixed by swapping the bushings. Probably a misalignment somewhere.
 

d24tdi

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Glad you got it to where it works. Whatever vibes are still left might not be that different from how these are in stock VW applications. Even there, vibration is always noticeable. The pendulum mounts of the Mk4 chassis cars do a great job suppressing it but the tripod setup of the old Mk3/B4 transmits plenty. Perfect control of NVH is a serious challenge with these engines no matter what they are in, so sounds like you got a pretty good outcome.

As was mentioned, still will be interesting to see how the flywheels do now, since the axle bushings probably were not the cause for that. But if you can run an SMF now that doesn't break while still keeping the vibes under control, maybe it doesn't matter. Do you have a SMF in it now?
 

vtpsd

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WOW! Glad you solved it. What a long battle its been. I would not have expected such a difference from those bushings.
 

cj.surr

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Glad you got it to where it works. Whatever vibes are still left might not be that different from how these are in stock VW applications. Even there, vibration is always noticeable. The pendulum mounts of the Mk4 chassis cars do a great job suppressing it but the tripod setup of the old Mk3/B4 transmits plenty. Perfect control of NVH is a serious challenge with these engines no matter what they are in, so sounds like you got a pretty good outcome.

As was mentioned, still will be interesting to see how the flywheels do now, since the axle bushings probably were not the cause for that. But if you can run an SMF now that doesn't break while still keeping the vibes under control, maybe it doesn't matter. Do you have a SMF in it now?
I agree that whatever vibrations remain might be natural. When I compare the hydraulic BMW M42 mounts I'm using to the stock mk3 mounts, I can see that there would be a significant difference in damping. The mk3 engine mounts are pretty hard to incorporate into the 240, but I may look into that- at least on the passenger side. Right now the only bothersome vibration is <1700 RPM in 5th (<60mph).

Interesting that you mention the pendulum mounts. I started doing a restoration/tdi swap on a Eurovan westy and noticed that those hanging mounts looked like great dampers and was wondering if I could use something like that in the volvo.

I'm currently running the SMF. Between the T5 transmission and W55, I've done about 30k failure-free miles on the SMF, so I think it's safe. I still can't say for sure what caused the DMFs to fail, but I don't plan on going back to them. They also introduce some backlash into the drivetrain that I find annoying. I think with some better attempts at damping, I will be able to get the vibrations completely under control.

WOW! Glad you solved it. What a long battle its been. I would not have expected such a difference from those bushings.

Thanks to you two guys for sticking through this problem and giving me ideas.
 

cj.surr

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I tried replacing my passenger side engine mount (hydraulic bmw m42) with the larger mk3 hydraulic mount. I also replaced the T5 trans mount with the small mk3 hydraulic mount. Vibration was noticeably better, but not enough to make me want to modify my mounting structure to permanently fit them.

I'm wondering if also using the 3rd mk3 mount on the passenger side would really make the difference. That would require cutting up my subframe and welding in a tube to fit the mk3 mount. I'm not overly optimistic about it, so I'm not sure I want to go through the trouble.

I'm also looking into importing a set of B5 TDI engine mounts. Seems to be a familiar top and bottom stud design that would be easier to incorporate. Can't tell if they're the same as the gasoline B5 mounts.
 
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d24tdi

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I think you are right that it might not be worth reinventing whatever fabrication work you have in place now. Vibration and buzz are always there even in the stock Mk3/B4 cars. The same is mostly true for the B5. Mounting systems where the same mounts have to both support the weight of the engine and transmit torque for propulsion are challenging in terms of NVH control with a 4-cylinder engine. Pendulum mount systems have the advantage of being able to support the mass of the drivetrain with one set of mounts (which can be fairly soft), and then transmit drivetrain torque with a different and much firmer mount (the dogbone in most such setups). Sometimes, like in the case of the Mk4 VW design, the dogbone is even attached to a rubber isolated subframe as well, which gives a further layer of vibration control. But I think decoupling those mounting and torque forces is what allows the later transverse TDI cars to be so refined compared to the early ones. ALH and AHU engines themselves both vibrate approximately the same amount, but if you put your fingers on the steering wheel of an idling ALH car, you feel almost nothing. With the older chassis cars you feel plenty. Or as another comparison, the AHU TDI in my T4 Eurovan with the factory pendulum mount setup is a much smoother experience than the exact same type engine in a B4 Passat or A3 Jetta with the tripod mount.

Anyway all that to say if you've got the NVH at a tolerable level now with your setup, that's a pretty good victory.

The B5 gas and diesel mounts are externally the same and bolt up the same way, but are different, the gassers are solid and the diesels are hydraulic. They do make a considerable difference in those cars so it's possible some B5 diesel hydraulic mounts would be beneficial in your setup, though again if it's pretty good now you might be chasing diminishing returns since even with new good diesel hydraulic mounts B5's with 4cyl diesels are noted for NVH too. You wouldn't have to import the diesel mounts, they're available from all the usual sources stateside for a US spec 04-05 Passat TDI with BHW engine, though they are pricey, over $100 each.

Be interested to watch your T4 conversion, do you have a thread up for it?
 

cj.surr

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I think you are right that it might not be worth reinventing whatever fabrication work you have in place now. Vibration and buzz are always there even in the stock Mk3/B4 cars. The same is mostly true for the B5. Mounting systems where the same mounts have to both support the weight of the engine and transmit torque for propulsion are challenging in terms of NVH control with a 4-cylinder engine. Pendulum mount systems have the advantage of being able to support the mass of the drivetrain with one set of mounts (which can be fairly soft), and then transmit drivetrain torque with a different and much firmer mount (the dogbone in most such setups). Sometimes, like in the case of the Mk4 VW design, the dogbone is even attached to a rubber isolated subframe as well, which gives a further layer of vibration control. But I think decoupling those mounting and torque forces is what allows the later transverse TDI cars to be so refined compared to the early ones. ALH and AHU engines themselves both vibrate approximately the same amount, but if you put your fingers on the steering wheel of an idling ALH car, you feel almost nothing. With the older chassis cars you feel plenty. Or as another comparison, the AHU TDI in my T4 Eurovan with the factory pendulum mount setup is a much smoother experience than the exact same type engine in a B4 Passat or A3 Jetta with the tripod mount.

Anyway all that to say if you've got the NVH at a tolerable level now with your setup, that's a pretty good victory.

The B5 gas and diesel mounts are externally the same and bolt up the same way, but are different, the gassers are solid and the diesels are hydraulic. They do make a considerable difference in those cars so it's possible some B5 diesel hydraulic mounts would be beneficial in your setup, though again if it's pretty good now you might be chasing diminishing returns since even with new good diesel hydraulic mounts B5's with 4cyl diesels are noted for NVH too. You wouldn't have to import the diesel mounts, they're available from all the usual sources stateside for a US spec 04-05 Passat TDI with BHW engine, though they are pricey, over $100 each.

Be interested to watch your T4 conversion, do you have a thread up for it?
To put the vibrations in perspective, they are still much more severe than a mk3 TDI. Mostly now the only range that is annoying is below 1850rpm in 5th under load. That range can be avoided easily, which is why I said it's much more tolerable now. Before replacing the trailing arm bushings, the vibrations were more severe, and occurred up to 2150 rpm.

That being said, I am going to continue pursuing different mounting arrangements. I think the B5 engine mounts will be my first effort, since my setup is much more similar to a B5 than an A3. You are correct about the B5 mounts being expensive state-side (particularly the Left side) but there appear to be inexpensive Corteco and Febi options in Europe. Although it's hard to tell if they are the right ones. This website shows compatibility with several different part number suffixes.

https://www.onlinecarparts.co.uk/corteco-2102288.html

https://www.onlinecarparts.co.uk/febi-bilstein-1872765.html

Maybe I could find a set of used BHW Passat mounts in the states to give them a try. I think I would just need to shorten my mount arms, if anything at all.

As far as the T4, we are currently still doing rust repair. It's getting a full restoration. I've got the AFN dipstick/pan and mount all set up on the tdi, but I haven't installed the engine yet. Still need to finish up the body work and paint. I'll probably wait until the project is complete before I make a thread.
 
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