2.0 TDI timing chain

I was at the dealership the other week inquiring about a 2012 Jetta Sportwagen. The sales person there mentioned in mid 2012, the TDI is supposed to get a timing chain vice the belt. Anyone heard this news ?

I haven't heard but if it's anything like the chains they use on the 2.5 gasser, the chain that drives the oil pump/b/s on the 04-05 Passat, I think I'll be happy I have a belt.

nothing wrong with a belt, as long as you change it out on schedule..

I hope they don't give the TDI a chain... they are finally once again 100% chain-free on the 4 cylinders sold here. Belts are SO much better on Volkswagens.

Has the 2.0T gone back to a belt???

GoFaster said:

Has the 2.0T gone back to a belt???

Click to expand...

No.

And a properly designed chain is much better than a belt. That requires a $1200 service every 100k miles.

yeah but how much does it cost to replace a chain, at what miles?

740GLE said:

yeah but how much does it cost to replace a chain, at what miles?

Click to expand...

A properly designed chain NEVER requires replacement.

The one on my crown vic is at 300k miles and perfectly fine.

maxedtdi said:

No.

And a properly designed chain is much better than a belt. That requires a $1200 service every 100k miles.

Click to expand...

I disagree, but even then, VAG has never really "properly designed" a chain drive, so.... And it should not be costing anyone $1200 to service even the MOST expensive TDI timing belt.

oilhammer said:

I disagree, but even then, VAG has never really "properly designed" a chain drive, so.... And it should not be costing anyone $1200 to service even the MOST expensive TDI timing belt.

Click to expand...

I agree with you on the chain. I had a B7S4... talk about ticking timebomb of a chain. That said, around here $1200 is downright reasonable for a timing service at an indie. Dealerships....

maxedtdi said:

A properly designed chain NEVER requires replacement...

Click to expand...

rubbish.
Ask anyone with an MB diesel. Standard interval is 200K mi for these.
I think the chain in an overhead cam engine is stressed more than OHV (like your crown vic)

My 87 4runner (22re) needed a new chain at 135K. Also needed new nonplastic chain guides. Poor chain guide's original design. Chain slack/stretch & guide failure would allow the chains to cut into the front end covers.

tditom said:

rubbish.
Ask anyone with an MB diesel. Standard interval is 200K mi for these.
I think the chain in an overhead cam engine is stressed more than OHV (like your crown vic)

Click to expand...

I've owned 2 MB diesels with 275k (11 years) and 260k (10 years), one gas MB (14 years) and one Nissan (15 years) with over 200k miles each plus many other vehicles with chains with over 100k miles and never had an issue with chains or guides. I'll take a chain anyday rather than paying for what say 20 timing belt services.

The chains stretch, so especially in the injection pump MB's, you get a slow degradation in performance over time. Think about it- you're completely reliant on the mechanical timing of the pump firing in relation to piston position.

I suppose a modern engine could compensate for the chain stretch for a much longer period of time, but chains DO need replacement, just like belts. Maybe 2x as long, but not 20x.

Yes chains stretch, but I believe my 123 and 126 MBs had a double link chains while I'm fairly certain my old Nissan only had a single link chain. All were driven mostly highway miles. So, with proper oil change intervals, double chain, and highway miles, stretching is generally not an issue at 200k miles.

I remember back in the mid '80s and then again in the early '90s when I had the injectors rebuilt in the MB diesels (around 150k+- miles IIRC), I asked the shop that did the rebuild about replacing the chain and they indicated they have seen them last 300k- 400k miles. I had the about 4 inch think MB engine repair manual for the 126 300SD + 4 other MB manuals (paid about $90 for all five new in the '80s) and checked the chain stretch and don't recall the exact degrees of stretch but I don't believe the chain was stretched anymore than a few degrees when I sold them. I don't recall what the tolerance was for stretch but I'd say maybe 8-10 degrees before the chain should be replaced. I seem to remember adjusting the timing of the pumps occasionally and also getting an offset key for one of the MB to alter the cam timing.

So, I'd say early timing belts were 80k miles CI and dual link timing chains are more like 300k+ miles CI. That's more like 4X. But, I guess my point is most people don't keep a car long enough to have to worry about a timing chain replacement (whether that be 2X or more) like they do a timing belt replacement every 100k miles or so with associated costs between say $500 - $1000.

My current 2008 Nissan has 108k miles on it and I don't have to spend any $ on a timing belt replacement. And given that it's likely to be driven less than 6k miles a year now for the next 8-10 years or so, I'll never have a timing chain replacement.

And as an aside before I get asked whether I want to sell the MB manuals, I sold the engine manual around year 2000+ for $125 on ebay to a fellow in Brazil and the other manuals for about $100 total to a lady on ebay that bought and resold repair manuals.

Please not this debate again...

tditom said:

rubbish.
Ask anyone with an MB diesel. Standard interval is 200K mi for these.
I think the chain in an overhead cam engine is stressed more than OHV (like your crown vic)

Click to expand...

Like I said, properly designed chain. You listing out failed designs by MB and VAG serves nothing but to add to my point.

timing belts are an incredibly expensive maintenance item, doing away without them keeps cars more economical and reliable. Modern day toyotas and fords have been very reliable in their designs.

You clearly don't even know the design of the engine I am referencing (4.6L Ford V8) since it is a SOHC design.

Gear driven cams! Just think about that glorious sound!

Plus 3 Golfer said:

I'll take a chain anyday rather than paying for what say 20 timing belt services.

Click to expand...

So you're planning on going 2.4 millions miles on your CR TDI?

(20 belts x 120,000 mile interval)

maxedtdi said:

Like I said, properly designed chain. You listing out failed designs by MB and VAG serves nothing but to add to my point.

timing belts are an incredibly expensive maintenance item, doing away without them keeps cars more economical and reliable. Modern day toyotas and fords have been very reliable in their designs.

You clearly don't even know the design of the engine I am referencing (4.6L Ford V8) since it is a SOHC design.

Click to expand...

My bad about the crown vic engine being an OHV.

But you have to admit- all chains stretch. and when they do, timing changes.

frugality said:

So you're planning on going 2.4 millions miles on your CR TDI?
(20 belts x 120,000 mile interval)

Click to expand...

No, the 20 is if all the cars I've owned had timing belts instead of chains plus using 80k intervals.. The 20 might be a little high since I didn't keep any of my first 1/2 dozen cars or so past about 60k miles. The only car I've owned that I had the timing belt service done on was my 2000 B5 in 2005 for a little over $500.

maxedtdi said:

timing belts are an incredibly expensive maintenance item, doing away without them keeps cars more economical and reliable. how so? Modern day toyotas (ROFL! You really need to research Toyota's crappy newer engines before that statement). and fords (LOL, yeah, sure... Duratecs blowing up at only 200k miles, that is great!) have been very reliable in their designs.

You clearly don't even know the design of the engine I am referencing (4.6L Ford V8) since it is a SOHC design. (yes, so long as you can keep the oil and spark plugs in them, and they have TWO chains, BTW)

Click to expand...

Bold in mine, from a guy who actually SEES cars every day.

I am still laughing at the Toyota engine comment. I mean, these are clearly VERY reliable engines:



That is TWO Lexuses, side by side, neither one made it half as far as a VAG diesel can go on a timing belt, and that us just a normal day there...

The old MZ engines (with a BELT) are FAR superior than the GR engines, aside from the few sludgers.. but by the time the VVT 3MZ-FE was out, that was all sorted. No way you'll ever see a 2GR-FE claim the longevity and trouble-free operation the 3MZ-FE has already proven itself capable of.

oilhammer said:

I hope they don't give the TDI a chain... they are finally once again 100% chain-free on the 4 cylinders sold here. Belts are SO much better on Volkswagens.

Click to expand...

No, the Golf R uses a chain.

ToeBall said:

No, the Golf R uses a chain.

Click to expand...

The 270hp Golf R[20] uses an EA113 based 2.0L engine. It is not the 201hp EA888 engine. But I was referring to the diesels, which so far thankfully are still based on the EA113 engine design. It does use, like other DOHC EA113 engines (as well as DOHC EA827 engines) a chain to operate the second camshaft off of the first. But a proper belt is still used from the crankshaft. It is not simply an uptuned version of the GTI engine. But the real kicker is, it uses a chain driven dual balance shaft... which us BHW owners know all too well VAG really failed hard on... so I'll keep the Golf R on my "admire but do not buy" list.



The current 4 cylinder TDIs sold here, on the other hand, employ a belt to operate one cam, the second cam is driven via a gear, and the balance shafts (where equipped) are also driven via gears. No chains anywhere! Too bad they seem to have failings in other areas.

If you want to talk about serious longevity and don't really care what it sounds like.. This is what you need. No stretching, breaking and very very slim chance of it jumping a tooth!





Sorry just had to throw this in there.. I didn't go with this style on the big block, but decided to do a double roller timing chain.. I think i could get a few thousand miles out of this before it starts to stretch

VAG uses a gear drive on the V10 TDI, and its 'half' version, the T'reg's R5 2.5L TDI.

oilhammer said:

I disagree, but even then, VAG has never really "properly designed" a chain drive, so....

Click to expand...

This! VW and chains makes any timing belt issues they ever had seem like a blessing. They suck when it comes to chains.

oilhammer said:

But the real kicker is, it uses a chain driven dual balance shaft... which us BHW owners know all too well VAG really failed hard on... so I'll keep the Golf R on my "admire but do not buy" list.

Click to expand...

The petrol chain driven oil pumps have no issues at all. I have not heard of one single incident with the actual chain drive to the oil pump and it has been used for over a decade now in the 1.8ts and other applications. I mention the 1.8t because there are people making 500..600..700 and beyond hp with them without a problem and hundreds if not thousands running around with 300+hp as daily drivers, my mk4 is in the 300whp range and has 130K miles without incident, its had an upgraded turbo on it since 6K miles and chipped since about 2K.

On the 2.0t EA113 there are some issues with the balance shafts at higher power levels. APR before going to the EA888 motors actually removed the shafts in their race cars and many people do that on the street as well with higher power applications. I converted my A3 with an Ea113 2.0t to a 1.8t style oil pump and removed the balance shafts all together. Car makes 600+hp and has over 40K miles on the current setup without a problem.

I did forget to torque the bolt right once and the pulley on the pump jumped eating a motor I just built in a few hundreds miles.. whoops, that was expensive.

I have had a half-dozen broken oil pump chain tensioners on 250k+ mile EA113 cars, so they do indeed fail. But they are quick, cheap, and easy to replace proactively, so no big deal.

They wear so thin that they crack:



But the bigger issue is the Failboat cam chain tensioner/phaser on the 1.8t engines:



Thos ARE a bigger dealer to replace, and are not cheap either. Oil sludging does not help the issue. And the V6 and V8s have TWO of these, the W8 and W12 have FOUR!!!!

oilhammer said:

The 270hp Golf R[20] uses an EA113 based 2.0L engine. It is not the 201hp EA888 engine. But I was referring to the diesels, which so far thankfully are still based on the EA113 engine design. It does use, like other DOHC EA113 engines (as well as DOHC EA827 engines) a chain to operate the second camshaft off of the first. But a proper belt is still used from the crankshaft. It is not simply an uptuned version of the GTI engine. But the real kicker is, it uses a chain driven dual balance shaft... which us BHW owners know all too well VAG really failed hard on... so I'll keep the Golf R on my "admire but do not buy" list.

The current 4 cylinder TDIs sold here, on the other hand, employ a belt to operate one cam, the second cam is driven via a gear, and the balance shafts (where equipped) are also driven via gears. No chains anywhere! Too bad they seem to have failings in other areas.

Click to expand...

Nah, mine will be hear in late Feb. I really was under the impression that the R used the older engine design. I feel better now, especially after confirming this with Google.

chris@revotechnik said:

The petrol chain driven oil pumps have no issues at all. I have not heard of one single incident with the actual chain drive to the oil pump and it has been used for over a decade now in the 1.8ts and other applications. I mention the 1.8t because there are people making 500..600..700 and beyond hp with them without a problem and hundreds if not thousands running around with 300+hp as daily drivers, my mk4 is in the 300whp range and has 130K miles without incident, its had an upgraded turbo on it since 6K miles and chipped since about 2K.

On the 2.0t EA113 there are some issues with the balance shafts at higher power levels. APR before going to the EA888 motors actually removed the shafts in their race cars and many people do that on the street as well with higher power applications. I converted my A3 with an Ea113 2.0t to a 1.8t style oil pump and removed the balance shafts all together. Car makes 600+hp and has over 40K miles on the current setup without a problem.

I did forget to torque the bolt right once and the pulley on the pump jumped eating a motor I just built in a few hundreds miles.. whoops, that was expensive.

Click to expand...

I'm going to have to pick your brain about this at some point, because 600hp is around my target level for the final version of my R.

Sorry to pull the thread off topic folks, well, not really sorry so much as apologetic.