What comes after emissions delete and tune?

KS3 and kerma tuning

2012 jetta wagon manual. Stock exhaust.
Kerma advertises +34 and +95 with their tuning for my platform. Their modified CR170 support 210 and 395 but how much does the turbo by itself add?
Secondly, what can I expect with both his tuning the modified cr170?

Turbo works in conjunction with the tune, it doesn't add anything by itself.


I know that they have a very unique and powerful setup going on in the new common rail engines.

Turbo itself doesn’t add anything it only lowers egt so you can stay into the turbo for far longer. I have the same setup and their newest cr tune is about 30-40% more torque than stock - it’s impressive and best $ you can spend performance wise.

I personally have some dmf shudder from the tune so I run a lower level version to maintain the clutch/dmf longevity. Let us know how it goes


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Thank you.
The cr140 is a 36lb turbo? What size is the 70?

Bumping it up

Tuner guaranteed results?

Are there any tuning services who step up and guarantee a certain amount of results? I know dynos and cars are different but for a stock car who gets dynod at xxx hp and xxx torque, gets tuned, and gets back on the dyno, are there any tuners willing to stand behind their product ?

yes, 100%

Lowangle said:

Are there any tuning services who step up and guarantee a certain amount of results? I know dynos and cars are different but for a stock car who gets dynod at xxx hp and xxx torque, gets tuned, and gets back on the dyno, are there any tuners willing to stand behind their product ?

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How much of your vehicle are you willing to sacrifice should be the question.
Plenty vehicles can be tuned beyond their mechanical limits and lots of tuners play it safe to avoid getting blamed for mechanical failures.

Since Kerma and Malone make tunes for 100% stock vehicles, then I'm sacrificing 0%.

Also, with the car being stock and in perfect running condition, there shouldn't be any excuses as to why the claims arent met.

I think what yahmon was saying is that if you increase the workload of/on any part(s) you will be increasing the stress placed upon that/those part(s) and will therefore likely be shortening its lifespan.
To quote from other threads on dynos, horsepower, torque, and fuel economy,
“...there’s no free lunch...if you want gains in something, you’re going to have to sacrifice something else to get it.”

You have a mk6 JSW, so it has some amount of miles on it.
I too have a mk6 JSW with some amount of miles on it.
Both have the same CJAA engine, so you’d think that we should be able to achieve the exact same numbers with the exact same tune.
But our cars have had very different histories, so they are going to show up in different states of condition, so the 2 specimens might behave/respond differently to the new tune - even if it’s the exact same tune.

I understand wanting to have a guarantee of product quality when you’re spending hundreds of dollars on said product. We (as consumers) just need to have realistic expectations so we can be fair to the people who make the products we buy.
If you’re going to be disappointed/upset/mad that the tune dynos 2hp short of what was promised, I would recommend not having it done. But hopefully that’s not the case because these tuned cars are a joy to drive, and I hope you enjoy yours.

if you are sacrificing 0, then you should not get a tune.

Look, I'm not going to demand a refund for 2hp less than what's advertised. But I base my decisions, esp decisions that involve my money, off of facts and data. I'm not going to spend money based off of someone's butt dyno and anecdotal evidence.

In any case, Kerma stepped up so I am going to work with him.

Any your same car/different histories example is flawed.

I said my car before the tune and my car after.

For example: let's say I dyno my car and get 120hp. Load the tune and dyno again 10 minutes later and only get 130. That is what I dont want.
However, if I load the tune and get 170, then I will feel I got my money's worth.

oh lord

your dyno day will cost much more than the cost of the tune!

all these tuners are fantastic and stand by the tune and all the products that they sell, Darkside, Malone, Kerma, Franko6, and many others here all will provide and excellent product.
Don't think that if you don't get perfect results, its the tuners or builders fault.

Lets say you get some cheep Chinese turbo and some knock off nozzles, and buy a tune from malone and your power is not even close, well its not his fault.
Look these tuners have written tunes for just about every config under the sun. tell them what you have, get tune.
Also why are you going to a dyno? Buy parts, more power done. OR you can spend more than the car is worth in a day of dyno pulls and a custom tuner on site to fine tune a custom build. its up to you.

To really get your moneys worth buy the tools and do your own. You can make it whatever you want. Not only that you can stand behind it yourself with your own personal guarantee!

These tuners you have already been told about wouldn't have the reputation they have if they didn't meet their published specs.

You're asking two different questions. One is whether or not the tuner will guarantee results, the second is will they stand by their product. Given the variables in car condition, dyno accuracy, and even dyno operators, it would be folly for a tuner to guarantee specific results. But I think you can be confident that any tuner who has a presence here will work with you to get the best outcome possible for your TDI. Tuners frequently put in extra time and effort to work with customers to make sure they get the results they're hoping for.

Regarding engine wear, aggressive tuning stresses engine components and internals, and can cause premature wear or failure. But TDIs are robust and long-lived engines, so it's doubtful you would actually experience any premature wear in a mildly tuned engine. You most likely won't have the car long enough. How likely are you to stll have the car if engine lasts 400K instead of 500K? People here say they want to keep their cars that long, but they rarely do.

I did wear out the engine in my Wagon at around 300K miles. Valve guides totally worn out (you could wiggle the valves in the guides) all rods bent, and bores ovaled, causing bllowby. However, That engine made more than twice stock power for 120K miles, and had a tune with a 6000 RPM redline, which I used a lot during track days. And if I'd been willing to continue to add a liter of oil every 3K miles, I probably could have driven it a lot longer. I'm confident that with a tune only, none of that would have happened.

Lowangle said:

Any your same car/different histories example is flawed.

I said my car before the tune and my car after.

For example: let's say I dyno my car and get 120hp. Load the tune and dyno again 10 minutes later and only get 130. That is what I dont want.
However, if I load the tune and get 170, then I will feel I got my money's worth.

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You should learn to read and take the free advise from others here
Ask your clutch what it thinks about an extra 50hp, I allready know the answer to that. I have that tune laying here for my jetta but can't use it untill i upgrade the clutch. It was slipping the clutch in every single gear.

Just once Id like to ask one question and not get dragged into the weeds with a thousand different variables.
I asked the tuners if they would guarantee their work.
Then ppl get sidetracked about clutch and longevity and other exhaust work and dyno cost and too many other variables.
Kerma said yes. That's the end of this conversation. Thank you, Kerma.

Lowangle said:

I asked the tuners if they would guarantee their work.

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Well, actually, you posted a question to the general population (that's what these forums are)... and now appear to be taking offense that the general population is weighing in.

"Asking the tuners" would have been emailing them directly via their websites, or PMing the subset of tuners who happen to somewhat frequent the forums, if you were OK with a much smaller sample set.

Right now you have a sample set of 1... the one vendor that happened across your post and responded.

IMO there's a lot more to a tune than a set of dyno numbers.
I don't drive my car to its limits all the time, driveability and
reliability for what I do with my vehicle are key.

My $.02.

Most tuners stand by their work...and to a degree, stand by some numbers +-. If you take a car and engine and tune it...and another "identical" car and engine and tune it...in theory they should be the same. But they may not be. The same as no two humans are alike....no two cars are alike. The combination of parts to make up a car are not constant in their specification...they are designed in a range. Thus some cars get better mileage..others do not. Some make more power...others do not. Some a dead reliable...others break all the time. SO with so many factors at play....one cannot assume that tune numbers are constants...they can certainly be close....but there will always be variances. I've gone to dyno days where one car was dynoed...and consistently make similar power...another car, who copied all the mods of the first, fell short 20 hp. Consistently. With the same tune. This happens quite a lot.

Lowangle said:

Just once Id like to ask one question and not get dragged into the weeds with a thousand different variables.
I asked the tuners if they would guarantee their work.
Then ppl get sidetracked about clutch and longevity and other exhaust work and dyno cost and too many other variables.
Kerma said yes. That's the end of this conversation. Thank you, Kerma.

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Perhaps this guy also went for the thank you kerma end of the conversation thingy.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=496179
But I get it man, you want your money's worth out of the tune and don't care what other cost it can create. Good thing you have deep pockets.

Lowangle said:

Just once Id like to ask one question and not get dragged into the weeds with a thousand different variables.
I asked the tuners if they would guarantee their work.
Then ppl get sidetracked about clutch and longevity and other exhaust work and dyno cost and too many other variables.
Kerma said yes. That's the end of this conversation. Thank you, Kerma.

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If I was a tuner, with your attitude, I would tell you to just hit the road and go try to bully a guaranty out of someone else. Most guarantee are written to limit a shops liability anyway.

Any time you tune an engine, there is always the chance that the tune will find what is weak about your car and something will break or not function as expected. Plus a shop has no idea what hare brained thing you may have done to your "completely stock" car.

If there is an issue, most tuners will work with you to find the problem.

Well this is salty.....

Saaaaaawwwwwwl-ty

I don't think there's anything wrong with someone wanting an assurance that the product they are about to spend good money on, will actually do what is claimed.

All the rest just seems to be making excuses and rationalizations as to why it's ok if it doesn't. Not ok, IMO.

KERMA said:

I don't think there's anything wrong with someone wanting an assurance that the product they are about to spend good money on, will actually do what is claimed.

All the rest just seems to be making excuses and rationalizations as to why it's ok if it doesn't. Not ok, IMO.

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I doubt you can guarantee an exact number, unless it's a good bit below the expected. If a hypothetical tune of yours typically gives 20 hp, what would you do if your customer got 19 hp on a dyno? Isn't that really the question here?

ToxicDoc said:

I doubt you can guarantee an exact number, unless it's a good bit below the expected. If a hypothetical tune of yours typically gives 20 hp, what would you do if your customer got 19 hp on a dyno? Isn't that really the question here?

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I would say let's look at the percent gains

That's the only legitimate use of a dyno chart. Tossing around tuned numbers is sheer nonsense without knowing what it did stock (or before whatever change is being tested).

For example, one of our competitors enjoys having a customer who performed a CJAA "stage 2 full delete" dyno at a Colorado Springs facility known for their arbitrary "compensation" and is locally known for giving wildly optimistic results. There's a you tube video, chart posted on tdiclub by the tuner in their "colection of dynos" thread, and it's"the" result that got picked up by "the internet" as "what you get" with stage 2.

There's no stock results on the same dyno, just a casual mention about "those cars dyno at 130-is hp stock". Albeit on a different, less arbitrarily optimistic dyno, but this tidbit is conveniently not mentioned.

But guess what, the "community consensus" is now "stage 2 full delete is 190 hp." That's what gets repeated over and over, and becomes it's own truth. The tuner is careful to never contradict this, and in fact includes this result in the "collection of dynos" thread". Of course there's plausible deniability, because it's not actually the tuner making the claim but a customer of theirs.

So the same car goes to a dyno day near Boulder, and lo and behold, 155 hp.
So, what's the real answer? Was the gain 19% or 60%?? Without a stock dyno it's hard to be sure.

Of course the superlatives in reviews and on the forums will always be similar, regardless of which tune, how powerful or not. Night and day, nice improvement, noticeable difference, should be like this from the factory, etc. Very predictable what they will say.

Those are pretty much just words though. Anyone can say them, especially if they don't have anything to compare to than stock.

Then if you get to drive both and compare... for example, see the chart below.

bottom curve = stock
middle curve = "stage 2" (competitor "190 hp" tune- the bobble at the end is egt limiter kicking in)
top curve = Kerma

same dyno, same car, same day, swapped out ecus on the dyno. Granted, this was a few years ago, so take it FWIW.

But the results we publish are for the same basic tune the customers will be getting. (I could go on about how there's "ringers" and that's not always the case, but that's for another time)

KERMA said:

All the rest just seems to be making excuses and rationalizations as to why it's ok if it doesn't.

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Maybe they're just not interested in petty internet drama.




Yes, we stand behind our work. We actually own a dyno and smoke opacity equipment etc that's used for in house development. Mark works in the same building and is directly involved in much of the development, unlike another tuner who lives in a different state from their shop and would rather bash others online instead of helping waiting customers.

KERMA said:

I would say let's look at the percent gains
That's the only legitimate use of a dyno chart. Tossing around tuned numbers is sheer nonsense without knowing what it did stock (or before whatever change is being tested).
For example, one of our competitors enjoys having a customer who performed a CJAA "stage 2 full delete" dyno at a Colorado Springs facility known for their arbitrary "compensation" and is locally known for giving wildly optimistic results. There's a you tube video, chart posted on tdiclub by the tuner in their "colection of dynos" thread, and it's"the" result that got picked up by "the internet" as "what you get" with stage 2.
There's no stock results on the same dyno, just a casual mention about "those cars dyno at 130-is hp stock". Albeit on a different, less arbitrarily optimistic dyno, but this tidbit is conveniently not mentioned.
But guess what, the "community consensus" is now "stage 2 full delete is 190 hp." That's what gets repeated over and over, and becomes it's own truth. The tuner is careful to never contradict this, and in fact includes this result in the "collection of dynos" thread". Of course there's plausible deniability, because it's not actually the tuner making the claim but a customer of theirs.
So the same car goes to a dyno day near Boulder, and lo and behold, 155 hp.
So, what's the real answer? Was the gain 19% or 60%?? Without a stock dyno it's hard to be sure.
Of course the superlatives in reviews and on the forums will always be similar, regardless of which tune, how powerful or not. Night and day, nice improvement, noticeable difference, should be like this from the factory, etc. Very predictable what they will say.
Those are pretty much just words though. Anyone can say them, especially if they don't have anything to compare to than stock.
Then if you get to drive both and compare... for example, see the chart below.
bottom curve = stock
middle curve = "stage 2" (competitor "190 hp" tune- the bobble at the end is egt limiter kicking in)
top curve = Kerma
same dyno, same car, same day, swapped out ecus on the dyno. Granted, this was a few years ago, so take it FWIW.
But the results we publish are for the same basic tune the customers will be getting. (I could go on about how there's "ringers" and that's not always the case, but that's for another time)

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That tune in the chart must be from the guy complaining about his dmf shudder in another thread. I have shelved one of those(to much) tunes myself until i get a much heavier clutch in there.