Cam Timing for the PD / BEW Engine

Ken Wallace

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When using the VAG-COM to set timing, there is a range of numbers that you have to be within. What I want to know is what do these numbers represent? What is the VAG-COM sensing? There is a cam position sensor and probably a crankshaft position sensor. Perhaps it is the relationship between these two things? I am trying to set my cam timing empirically. It's amazing how sensitive it is. Any advice highly appreciated.
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

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I'm more familiar with the later Pumpe Duse engine, so this may not apply.

When setting the cam timing on the Pumpe Duse engine, the number you look at with Vag-Com is described as "KW."

I believe this is short for "kurbelwinkel" which is "crank angle." I guess it's in degrees. (Has a degree symbol after the number if I remember correctly).
 

Windex

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^ This.

03 is an ALH, where the injection timing is set by adjusting the pump pulley in very small increments, as measured in the TDI timing function in basic settings.

04 through 06 are PD and the timing is adjusted in a similar manner with the cam pulley, but as above, you are measuring KW and the optimal setting is a matter of much debate.

Each car had a measured setting, often written very lightly on the top timing belt cover.

Most (not all) agree that setting to 0.0 and evaluating starting, acceleration, and fuel economy is the place to start.

Most end up at a setting between -2.0 and +2.0. Often it is a matter of setting the timing to what is written on the timing belt cover. :D
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

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Is this another car, not the 03 in your TDI list?
03 is an ALH
Oh yeah, I just realized the title of the thread is about a PD engine. I looked at the '03 in his list of TDI's and figured he was talking about the ALH.

So I inadvertently answered his exact question. LOL
 

Vince Waldon

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"Torsion" is probably the best search word to use if one wants to do a detailed technical analysis deep-dive. :)
 

Ken Wallace

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06 Golf 5 Speed
Thanks all for your comments! I am on TDI #3 now. The ALH is long gone (shipped to Hawaii). This one is a PD/BEW 2006 Golf 5 Speed.
I am trying to re-set the torsion timing because I am having trouble getting it to quit giving me P0101 (MAF code).
I am theorizing that having the timing off a bit may cause the computer to think there is an air-flow problem.
I resealed all the intake joints with new sealing rings and cleaned out the EGR and as much of the intake manifold as I could reach. Also new Bosch MAF and air filter. Still setting P0101.

I rented the Ross-Tech HEX+CAN off Ebay for a week and downloaded the latest program.
So far, I don't see a procedure for setting timing on the PD. I only see a big red warning that their procedure is for ALH only.
I see comments here on the forum about the setting of the parameter "KW". Should I see that on the Ross-Tech, or is that specific to some other kind of VAG-COM?
 

Matt-98AHU

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Thanks all for your comments! I am on TDI #3 now. The ALH is long gone (shipped to Hawaii). This one is a PD/BEW 2006 Golf 5 Speed.
I am trying to re-set the torsion timing because I am having trouble getting it to quit giving me P0101 (MAF code).
I am theorizing that having the timing off a bit may cause the computer to think there is an air-flow problem.
I resealed all the intake joints with new sealing rings and cleaned out the EGR and as much of the intake manifold as I could reach. Also new Bosch MAF and air filter. Still setting P0101.

I rented the Ross-Tech HEX+CAN off Ebay for a week and downloaded the latest program.
So far, I don't see a procedure for setting timing on the PD. I only see a big red warning that their procedure is for ALH only.
I see comments here on the forum about the setting of the parameter "KW". Should I see that on the Ross-Tech, or is that specific to some other kind of VAG-COM?
My experience has been that many PDs that set a P0101 MAF code are doing so due to a badly worn camshaft...

I'd be pulling the valve cover off and inspecting it closely.
 

Vince Waldon

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Yup. :) :)

Or an EGR valve actuator worn enough that the EGR is not closing all the way consistently.

VCDS can help you find this one: remove the EGR valve and then reconnect it to the harness. Using VCDS's output tests cycle the EGR multiple times to see if it closes completely every single time.

Mine stayed open a bit one time in five. Bingo. :) :)
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

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I see comments here on the forum about the setting of the parameter "KW". Should I see that on the Ross-Tech, or is that specific to some other kind of VAG-COM?
If you want to see the "Torsion" value it is in group 004 in Measuring Blocks on VCDS. It's the number on the far right of the group, where it says KW.

Should be close to 0.0 give or take a little. This number is the relationship between the rotation of the crankshaft and camshaft. Adjusting it positive or negative by a little bit from this value is really a matter of experimentation and your personal preference. If you set it to a slightly negative or positive value, and the car runs better in your opinion, then that is up to you. 0.0 is a safe value and where you should put if it you don't want to mess with it repeatedly.

To change the torsion value, you loosen the three bolts that hold the toothed cam sprocket to the hub underneath. The hub is attached to the cam, and the sprocket is bolted to the hub. When the three bolts are loose, you can turn the cam slightly, while the sprocket stays still (because it is held by the toothed belt). Once you make an adjustment, you tighten the three bolts, and run the engine while looking at the number in VCDS. (You'll need to put the intake hose back, which you would have had to remove to access the cam sprocket).

The amount of movement required to change the torsion value is very small. Keep in mind that if you go out of range, it reads 0.0. You should find that the three bolts are very near the center of the slotted holes in the cam sprocket, and then make very tiny adjustments from that point. If they are far from center, and you get a reading of 0.0, you're probably out of range.

This video shows how to do it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAEmqvUpKEY
 
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AndyBees

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That video is about useless.

Although, he states that the timing is retarded, he does not tell which direction to move the hub (read more below). Also, in MyTurboDiesel, there is a statement that is totally incorrect relating to counterclockwise vs clockwise relative to advancement or retarding the timing of the Cam. >>> This is totally wrong, quote from MyTurboDiesel) >> ("Anti clockwise on camshaft will advance it and clockwise will retard it.").

Keep in mind, moving the hub also moves the crankshaft. But, if the crankshaft is locked at TDC, in theory the hub should not be moveable. Right? Or, am I missing something? If so, would someone please explain in clear laymen terms.

To be clear, rotating the Cam Shaft clockwise, using the center bolt, advances Timing.

Now, back to the video. If just shaking the hub causes something (hub or cam) to move and that is the intent, well maybe it makes sense. Or, does it? Seems if the timing is retarded and the exercise is to advance it, then direction of movement needs to be verified as well as how much. Especially since, research tends to indicate that the procedure is a hit or miss until you land the reading where you want it.

I stand corrected as I may have missed the entire concept of adjusting the T value on a PD engine.
 

mjydrafter

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That video is about useless.

Although, he states that the timing is retarded, he does not tell which direction to move the hub (read more below). Also, in MyTurboDiesel, there is a statement that is totally incorrect relating to counterclockwise vs clockwise relative to advancement or retarding the timing of the Cam. >>> This is totally wrong, quote from MyTurboDiesel) >> ("Anti clockwise on camshaft will advance it and clockwise will retard it.").

Keep in mind, moving the hub also moves the crankshaft. But, if the crankshaft is locked at TDC, in theory the hub should not be moveable. Right? Or, am I missing something? If so, would someone please explain in clear laymen terms.

To be clear, rotating the Cam Shaft clockwise, using the center bolt, advances Timing.

Now, back to the video. If just shaking the hub causes something (hub or cam) to move and that is the intent, well maybe it makes sense. Or, does it? Seems if the timing is retarded and the exercise is to advance it, then direction of movement needs to be verified as well as how much. Especially since, research tends to indicate that the procedure is a hit or miss until you land the reading where you want it.

I stand corrected as I may have missed the entire concept of adjusting the T value on a PD engine.

This is all correct and agrees with my experience.


When I was messing with it, I would check it, adjust it, then check it.


It is just as archaic as it sounds as far as bumping the wrench on the cam pulley with the 3 bolts loosened. I would call it a good hammer kind of hit with the side of your hand (clenched fist). It's totally a feel operation. Once you do a few times you get the hang of what kind of hit or blow it takes to make the adjustment. I kind of watch the gaps on the pulley as well.


Ideally you check the torsion value before a t-belt. Then when you do the timing belt you get the torsion value at or near 0 with the bolts centered in their slots. That way you can adjust it either way and you have plenty of adjustability either way.
 
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Mike_04GolfTDI

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Now, back to the video. If just shaking the hub causes something (hub or cam) to move and that is the intent, well maybe it makes sense. Or, does it? Seems if the timing is retarded and the exercise is to advance it, then direction of movement needs to be verified as well as how much. Especially since, research tends to indicate that the procedure is a hit or miss until you land the reading where you want it.
Turning the sprocket as he does in the video would result in the opposite change in timing that you would get when you turn the large center nut (turning the hub underneath the sprocket).

So, if you want to advance the cam timing, you could turn the large nut (hub) clockwise, OR you could turn the sprocket counter-clockwise.

Although it probably works fine in practice, I don't like the concept of turning the sprocket. What he's doing is actually relying on a little bit of stretch in the timing belt to allow the sprocket to move a bit in relation to the hub. He's not using enough force to actually make the engine turn while the cam stays still. The amount of adjustment needed is usually almost imperceptible, so this works and you can get away with it.

I prefer to turn the large center bolt, while the three small bolts holding the sprocket to the hub are loose. This way the hub and cam are turning while the sprocket is prevented from turning by the timing belt and engine friction. This would work even if the timing belt had absolutely zero ability to stretch. The fact is it does allow enough movement, so either way will work, but my mental picture of what's going on says this method is better.
 
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AndyBees

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Well, I honestly feel bad about hi-jacking the OP's Thread. But, seems he must have got his question answered. So, I'd rather not start another Thread.

So, here is what I am dealing with.

I did a TB job on this car at 120k miles and set the T Value at 0.0. ('04 BEW) It started just fine with no complaints from the owner. Well, over the last 6 months it has become a hard starter. The battery spins the engine just fine, so, that is not the issue. Starter seems fine too. The odometer is now at 152k miles (32k on the belt).

So, I checked the T value and it was at -1.5. Also, there was a DTC for the Temp Sensor. I saved and cleared the code. After numerous starts that code did not come back. ............ now, after several days putting this thing off, I'm back at again.

I've set the T value in several spots between 1.0 to 3.9 but still getting hard starts.

Then, bam, the Temp reading on the last start shows up at -19c and the engine was crackling like it was a very cold morning (2.4 T value). Then, all of a sudden the Temp reading jumped to 83.1c. So, obviously, I need to install a new Temp Sensor.

To adjust the T value. Using a Sharpie, I lightly made a mark for reference. It is fairly easy to move the Cam bolt to make adjustments... but, as has been stated, it doesn't take much to change the T value considerably.

Anyway, is it possible that the faulty Temp Sensor is affecting the "real" T value? Or, once I change the Temp Sensor, should I venture into the negative numbers? 0.0, 1.0, 2.2, 3.4 & 3.9 advanced never helped at all.
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

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I've adjusted my torsion value over a wide range and found that the difference isn't very noticeable. It never caused any hard starting. I think you'd be wasting your time trying to adjust that with the goal of fixing a hard starting problem. It's probably something else.

I've adjusted mine between about -5 and +5. It had no effect on starting, and a very small effect on how it drives.

Maybe see what happens if you disconnect that temperature sensor. It should cause the ECU to default to a pre-programmed setting. If that helps it start better, then you've probably found the culprit. If it doesn't help, replace the sensor anyway, but also plan to look elsewhere. By the way, are you talking about the fuel temperature or coolant temperature?

Is the electric lift pump in the tank okay? Each time you turn the key on, it should run for a couple seconds. If you disconnect the fuel supply line at the filter you should get fuel squirting out when the pump runs. (direct it into a jar so you don't spill it, obviously)
 

AndyBees

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I changed the Temp Sensor .............. no difference
I replaced the Lift Pump in this car two years ago.

Again, since the last post, I've set the T value in several spots between -2.9 and 3.1 with virtually zero difference in how it starts ..... still a noticeably long cranking before it starts.

Besides the Temp Sensor DTC, there was an engine speed DTC.

16705 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
P0321 - 000 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent

I saved and cleared this DTC. It never come back. Then, when I finished up this evening, I scanned all systems and oddly found it again under Instruments.

So, the Engine Speed Sensor may be the culprit.

I'm going to let the owner take the car and drive it a few days then scan again to see if the Engine Speed Sensor DTC comes back. If so, that's the problem with the hard starting.
 

Ken Wallace

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Location
San Diego
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06 Golf 5 Speed
Hi, it's me the OP. I did get my rented Vag-Com working and checked my torsion. I thought I must be very clever to have set my cam so perfectly by the trial and error and seat-of-the-pants method. It read 0.0!
However, I also had a P0341 Camshaft sensor reading implausible.
After some reading I found reports that if the camshaft sensor is not reading correctly or the timing is too far off, it will cause the torsion to give a 0.0.

So, I tried an experiment and moved the timing just a bit. It still ran, but with little power. The torsion reading remained at 0.0 confirming that I was not actually getting a reading.

One fellow said the camshaft sensor only reads at start up to let the engine know where it is. After that, you can unplug it and the engine still runs. I tried that and it is true.
So, if my cam sensor is not working, how can the engine even start?

I did notice that my cam setting is extremely critical. Even more that what is described in other posts. My theory is, that the computer will use a default timing for injection if there is no cam position data. Also, it cannot adjust the timing without the data, so the setting has to be exactly right.
My car has been running this way for at least 70,000 miles. And it pulls strongly once it gets its revs up. It is sluggish below 1500 rpm. I believe I need to check the cam for worn lobes.
 

BobnOH

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..................... I found reports that if the camshaft sensor is not reading correctly or the timing is too far off, it will cause the torsion to give a 0.0. ....................
Never worked on a PD, but man, that sounds confusing. Is there not an alternate method to know that if it reads 0 because it's out range?
Or do you just check that the cam and crank are aligned?
Seems like your timing was fine before.
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

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When I got the Cam sensor reading implausible code on my car, it was because some teeth were stripped off the timing belt and the timing was off...

Check that your belt has all the teeth on it!

From your description that the car is sluggish until RPMs get higher, difficult starting, implausible cam position reading, and inability to get a torsion value other than 0.0, this leads me to believe that either your cam timing is way off, to the point that it could be because of stripped belt teeth, or possibly just the cam position sensor doesn't work.

It would be nice if it's just the sensor.

When attempting to check or adjust the torsion value, you should find that the three bolts that hold the cam sprocket to the cam hub underneath it are near the middle of the slotted holes in the sprocket. If they are far from the middle, that would tend to indicate that the belt was installed incorrectly, off by a tooth for example, or it has slipped a bit, and the sprocket has been adjusted to compensate. The belt could only slip if the tension was really loose, or some teeth were missing.
 
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mjydrafter

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A bad cam sensor will allow the engine to start and run fine. I believe it's used for faster starts. However, I never noticed any difference with or without it in starting. IIRC it works with the crank sensor. The crank sensor is required for the (PD) engine to run.



Unhooked or bad (cam sensor), the torsion value will read 0.0. Which is not the greatest failure mode. But it is understandable.


Andy: I would look very closely at the wiring, the one that goes to the temp sensor and the speed sensor, with those 2 codes. I bet you have some chafing or something making spotty contact.
 

AndyBees

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mjydrafter, yep, the wires inside the outer cover on the pigtail of the Crankshaft Position Sensor are bad. In pulling the pig tail loose from the holders, I damaged it a bit. Upon inspecting, I found that the black wire cover was extremely brittle. (the pig tail contains one red, one black and a bare surrounded by an aluminum shield).

I did change the Temp Sensor. The DTC no longer appears, but that did not help the starting issue. Those wires appeared to be just fine at the connector.

Looks like the Crankshaft Position Sensor for the BEW is different from the ALH engine.
 

mjydrafter

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There have been chaffing issues reported inside the harness further up, but those 2 sensors are longer and run from under the battery to the rear of of the engine. So they have extra potential for vibration and chaffing inside the corrugated outer tubing. They do run into the main harness, and I believe the chaffing issue can be on any number of wire/circuits.


Not saying that's what it is, just something to keep in mind. Tearing into the harness is daunting, but not that bad if you want piece of mind.


Like you I would wait and see if the codes reappear before tearing into that mess. :)
 
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