BEW, Warm Start issue....

Yes... there are a few threads on this topic but my frustration is, after lengthy reads I don't really seem to find a definitive solution or path to diagnose.

Maybe someone can answer a few questions to help me out? (BEW, 2005, 450,000kms Running well, no issues starting cold, or even in warm weather first start, but when the engine is up to temp... long cranks followed by a good start, well into my 4th timing belt, tried the Moly purge, fuel and air filters kept)

I do have a VCSD, I scan and I don't have any codes.

-Lift pump... I did a lift pump way back in the km's but I can hear it working, besides if the lift pump was failing would the engine even run? Is there a pressure test that can be performed?

-starter... like I said, good cold starts, Battery is a couple years old, have not checked the RPM cranking but I can't believe it has anything to do with how the engine starts, seems no difference between cold and hot.

-I've checked the timing, seems to be spot on by what I have read... or at least not out of whack and consistent.

-There is no "tune" and the dealer has not touched this car since the glow plug adventure (to steel) a long ways back. Started to notice the issue last year, getting progressively worse. I can't believe (perhaps naive) that the ECU programming could have anything to do with it other then a device not providing the right information.

-Maybe something is up with a sensor but as a bit of a rookie with the VCSD, maybe a little direction on what to look for might be helpful? I would think if there was a fault with the Cam/Crank/Fuel Temp or MAF something would set a code? Or should I drill down in the diagnostics to look for something specific? I don't have any experience with "logging" data from the ECU but willing to give it a try.

Maybe I've missed the "Golden Posting" that has the answer but I did do a fare bit of reading before posting this. Few if any had a Eureka moment, save for one that changed the cam sensor and had a solution. Not a big fan of tossing parts at something unless I have evidence.

Thanks for any help,

Martin

Try this search engine with your thread title- VW TDI Search Engine
This thread talks about bad software.

I'm having the same problem, but VCDS does show a P3007, camshaft position sensor. Back in Feb. I had replaced this sensor as a preventative maintenance, and that is when the problem started. This replacement came from a well known vendor on here, and to my surprise it did not have any logo on it. I have a new one ordered from an on-line VW dealer.

Regarding software, perhaps the experts would like to comment?

I personally work with a great deal of industrial equipment that various kinds of firmware updates and changes. It's not uncommon for a new firmware to introduce a"bug" that needs to be corrected, often if a new feature is not required we lock in a stable version and do not update (or at least wait until the experts have fixed their handy work )

My question to the experts.... VW updated my BEW computer when the ceramic plugs were updated to steel, since the change the engine has performed flawlessly... so why would the programming have anything to do with the current long crank hot starts? As far as I know... I have not had the VW experts sneak onto my property and re-flash the computer

I'm reluctant to accept the software has anything to do with the start, tho... I could be sold on the point that the engine has aged, compression no doubt has changed, injectors have worn so I could be sold on the idea the software needs a tweak... but up until now I have been reluctant to look at a "tune".

As a bit of an update, did another scan, one minor code about immobilizer/failed start, cleared. Torsion Value set at "0", kicks over .5 when coming off a rev. Injector quality within tolerances.

My bug with the treads that I research is nobody seems to post a "Eureka" moment, with the exception of cam shaft sensor appearing to be the solution for one individual.

Martin

Not expert, not even a mechanic.
But I can tell you this is the opposite situation. The original fuel map in the ECU is funky. Don't know if VW even has a fix. Malone sells a $100 fix, you needs send them your ECU.
Unrelated to the glow plug fiasco, although you would think if VW new about the fuel maps, they would have incorporated in that firmware upgrade.
Please consider- we 're not even sure this is the issue.

The problem is here:



An ECU flash solves the problem.

The ECU programming is an interesting point but... : From my perspective, VW did a ECU update when they converted from ceramic to steel. Related or not, what was in that update is all voodoo to me but after the update (nearly 300,000kms ago), there were no "warm/hot start" issues. I'm going to assume fuel mapping was good enough because for at least 250,000 kms since the update it worked just fine... or like I said before.. those sneaky VW service guys flashed my ECU with a defective version in the middle of the night

OK, I will concede my BEW has aged, no doubt some tweaking will solve/help the questions regarding the warm start on an older engine (and also deal with some occasional boost creep). I'm contemplating a Malone Stage One, leaving the EGR system intact and in service.

The threads on this topic that I have followed never seem to have a definitive conclusion, owners just seem to toss parts at the issue and either the issue goes away or do the owners just give up?

Martin

I tried to find the tsb for more info, came across this thread-
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=328868

Great write-up, good read, but as best as I can tell. Unrelated, I'm seeing no codes, no white smoke on cold start... Just extended cranking in warm start conditions.

I believe this is my software: 038 997 016 L

Martin

towforce said:

I'm seeing no codes, no white smoke on cold start... Just extended cranking in warm start conditions.
I believe this is my software: 038 997 016 L
Martin

Click to expand...

Does VCDS show the correct coolant temperature with the warm start?
What is the cranking RPM?

Yes to the coolant question for a cold start... ok perhaps not "cold" but first start of the day 15.3 C, Have not done the warm start temp check.... During the cold start, saw a progressive rise in temp(log ended at 38C) but have not logged a true warm/hot start (after a good drive....).

Cranking from the log, suggests 1000+ on the cold crank start.... I think, will need to open and re-check the log data to be sure. (Edit... ok, looking at the log, the engine rpm, during the cold start hits a peak of 1176, then falls back to 861... since I'm a newb at reading this stuff, maybe I got it wrong but the whole event is within a few seconds and I see a steady 903 idle afterwards). From the log, when can you actually see the engine has started? When the "Start Synchronis" switches from 2-48?

Crank and cam all log the correct rpm's. Not sure if I got the fuel temp in the log, but as I recall, they appear to reading what I would expect for fuel temp.

Tomorrow, I thought I would get Malone stage one tune... Something I have been kicking around for quite some time... Maybe fix the hot start issue?, Regardless, will do a warm start at some point and post the crank speed and temps.

Martin

Yesterday I replaced the camshaft sensor with one from an on-line dealer, and no more long, warm engine cranks. My 90 day warranty is past due on the other, non OEM sensor, and I hope to cut a deal with our trusted vendor. It was not any easy job, to say the least.

JB05 said:

Yesterday I replaced the camshaft sensor with one from an on-line dealer, and no more long, warm engine cranks. My 90 day warranty is past due on the other, non OEM sensor, and I hope to cut a deal with our trusted vendor. It was not any easy job, to say the least.

Click to expand...

JB05, just to confirm, you were getting codes set by the sensor? (original and the non-OEM)?

Martin

Here is an update to my "Warm Start issue"....(reminder, high km's, running well, no codes being set, no other drive-ability issues)

A couple days ago I went and did the unthinkable (for me ... a "unbeliever" ;-).... I went and had the ECU flashed with a Malone Stage 1 Tune with no delete. (I left the standard EGR management in place).

Cold start, 14C, perfect (better?). Then I took the old girl out for a drive, got her all warmed up, multiple "Hot Starts" later.... Perfect hot starts, starts as quick as I recall from the past.

As to the rest of the Malone tune... pretty amazing how much of a refresh the tune has provided. I will admit, I'm a bit of skeptic and firmly believe modifying "stock" comes at a cost to longevity. (way back in a past life I stage built old air cooled VW's and for every stage you could apply an expected reduction in life of the engine). I noted with the tune the old motor mounts seem to strain a bit harder when I give it the coal translating a bit of a harsher pull from the engine.

We have to do a high altitude trip through the Cascades soon, where the tune will get a real test and we will get some more real "hot start" tests.

For what ever reason, the tune corrected what ever fuel mapping issue that existed with the last VW upgrade. No doubt the VW software had fallen behind the condition of the engine (was not compensating for age?) and Malone tune no doubt uses a better start profile to achieve a better warm,hot/start performance. In fairness to VW, I never checked on the version of software that I have now versus any recent service changes that they may have for the ECU now. I'm due to pickup some oil soon, my dealer is a pretty friendly group so I will check in with the service desk to see if there were any changes....

I will have to wait to see if my Malone tune was worth the $299 but if you have a BEW, high KM's, well maintained and setting no codes, I recommend considering the basic tune and or checking with your dealer to see if there is an update that could be applied to the ECU.

Martin

Nice!
The factory tune was defective and there are no longevity issues. The one concern with a tune is when they provide too much torque for the clutch. At Stage 1 you have nothing to worry about.
Happy motoring and thanks for posting back solution.

Followup to the followup.

Well, I won't know how the Malone Stage One Tune is going to perform with a true "Cold Start".... But, for sure, My warm start issues are solved. Simply perfect, amazing how much less effort it takes to start (hot or cold).

We just took a blast through Washington States North Cascades and can't believe just how much the "Tune" has perked up our old BEW. Being a bit suspicious about this sort of voodoo trickery I have no idea at what cost to the future life of the engine but for now I'm having a hard time getting the grin of my face when I put the hammer down and pull off a uphill pass. We tested multiple "Hot" restarts, perfect every time.

Without question, I would highly recommend the tune if you having warm start issues with your BEW, If your not throwing codes, the engine is well maintained, no other issue... check out a reputable first stage tune. Oh... a bit of warning... if your clutch is nearing its end... a tune will finish it ! (mine is a near new Luk)

In fairness to VW, I did do a followup with some questions to my dealer. Of course, they pretty much loose interest in something as old as my O5, but he did look up to see if there were any followup ECU updates since the recall that converted to steel GP's (he found none). I also don't know if they have any "tuning" options within the stock configuration but I guess that's when it becomes a "tune"?... Picked up my case of 505.01 and left the building.

455,000 km's and counting.....

Cheers

Martin

Appreciate the positive feedback stage 1 is pretty mild so shouldn't have any problems there, still below stock power output in European models. I'd log block 11 with VCDS to see how the turbo is behaving every once in awhile given we're in a mountenous area, just to make sure that borg warner isn't getting temperamental.

GP recall has expired in Canada, we can update the file to 7V plugs if you ever swap them.

Owain@malonetuning said:

Appreciate the positive feedback stage 1 is pretty mild so shouldn't have any problems there, still below stock power output in European models. I'd log block 11 with VCDS to see how the turbo is behaving every once in awhile given we're in a mountenous area, just to make sure that borg warner isn't getting temperamental.

GP recall has expired in Canada, we can update the file to 7V plugs if you ever swap them.

Click to expand...

Your welcome, Keir and I discussed the KP39 turbo (I brought the ECU in myself), so far so good, if the computer and a hot day blasting through the pass comes together I will set up to log block 11.

I did have the GP recall done, Pretty sure Keir accommodated the updated plugs when we discussed the condition of the vehicle (had suffered only two over boost in the last two years).

As far as Stage 1 being "mild"... I can see how this sort of stuff could get out of hand! I did notice a bit of harshness under real heavy acceleration that I attribute to 450,000km motor mounts...possible some vibration from the aluminum skid plate... also had to watch the wheel spin on the wet off the lights... kids these days.

Cheers

Here is some info that may be relevant to this hot starting problem thread.
On my BEW/PD I have experimented with the cam timing. There is a point where it starts perfectly cold and runs very well hot or cold. But, if you turn it off and try to re-start hot, it will not start. I got stuck in the line at Jack in the Box and had to push my car through! Embarrassing! I did not have a VAG-COM, so I can't say the degree setting, but it seems likely to me that the hot starting problems discussed here have at least a partial connection to timing setting. The cam timing has a big influence on how the car starts.

Hey all. I've been reading this thread and working my way through things. My hard warm start began about three weeks or a month ago, and I've been trying to minimize it in order to save the starter. It began with no CELs, just the hard warm start.

What I've done:

-Coolant sensor replacement
-Fuel temp sensor replacement, along with some crappy fuel lines

No dice. So then I tried just unplugging the coolant temp sensor. The car ran reeeal rough and still had hard warm starts. I plugged the sensor back in, and after 20mins mixed driving, I got a CEL fit the first time: P0118 "Engine Coolant Temperature Circuit High Input", and P0183 "Fuel Temperature Sensor A Circuit High Input".

I'm tempted to throw down for a Malone tune, but maaaan would I feel crappy if I spent all that money and still had this problem. At this point, I see three possibilities:

1. I have a wiring problem, something is grounding out or shorting out in the loom that goes to these sensors
2. The starter is binding up on clutch dust (clutch has about 70,000 miles)
3. I have the dreaded BEW Hard Start Software problem and the solution is to get Malone to tune it out and in the process add 40HP :-D

I would really, really appreciate input, especially from those of you who have successfully solved these issues previously.




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