Air to water cooler.... why don't i see a lot?

Diesel_Benz

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Interesting, I paid $492 in parts to put one on my Rabbit.
The Touareg is awesome on its own, haven't touched it. Might look into GT20 turbos some day though.
 

Houpty GT

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Any updates on these? I am supportive of these ideas. The haters seem to be ignoring the fact that if you were to go to FMIC then you have to do custom piping anyway. The ALH and AHU intakes point in different directions so that is convenient and cheap for customizing if they are swappable.
My original idea was to use the regular radiator and an electric pump. I know this won't be as effective as a separate system for maximum performance but may be comparable to an air to air system and have tighter packaging. Now I am possibly thinking about using the stock intercooler as the AW radiator and just neck it down to fit hoses. I have not calculated out the effectiveness of either one yet but I wanted to share my ideas and see how others came along.

This thread was one of the top hits on google and I think it has credible knowledge but some show a bad side to TDI club.
 
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TDIJetta99

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03... Faster than yours =]
I'm not a hater by any means... They just aren't great for street use since it will get heat soaked fairly quickly with sustained load, especially in a performance tdi application. The FMIC is cheap, and easy enough if you aren't afraid of trying to make things.. If I were building a drag car, I would absolutely do a air-water setup, but for what I use mine for, it will never work consistently...
 

Diesel_Benz

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They just aren't great for street use since it will get heat soaked fairly quickly with sustained load
Only if you use a really small radiator like a transmission cooler. If you build it right, with an actual designed-for-water radiator, the inlet water temperature will never get more than a few degrees above ambient.
 

TDIJetta99

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03... Faster than yours =]
Only if you use a really small radiator like a transmission cooler. If you build it right, with an actual designed-for-water radiator, the inlet water temperature will never get more than a few degrees above ambient.
Hehe, not with what I do to my car. I regularly tow other cars with my TDI, and my car is far from stock (over 200whp). Think 80% throttle, 20psi for 12 gallons of fuel.. I would need a water radiator about 50-60% of the size of my regular coolant radiator to avoid heat soak while towing.. I contemplated doing it and it would work fairly well, but the system would be too complex, too expensive, and have way too many potential failure points for me. Having my water-air intercooler system fail to function 683 miles away from home is completely unacceptable. Bottom line, for my application and use, a simple big front mount will do the trick, it's dumb cheap, and all I need to carry in the trunk for spare parts are a few clamps and a silicone coupler..
 

D_Bat

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I'm doing a water to air setup on my vr6 turbo but that's because it's moving a lot of air that needs to be cooled. Most of the TDI applications on here don't move enough air to compensate even a small FMIC. If we were in the 400+ whp catagory I could see going a/w for space saving because then the FMIC needs to be pretty big.
 

TDIMeister

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The final heat exchanger is what transfers thermal energy to the environment, and regardless whether in an A2A or W2A system needs to be sized adequately for the job (ideally as big as possible). Just because you have an W2A system doesn't automatically mean you can make that final heat exchanger smaller; it just means that you can take the packaging requirement away from where you are more constrained to where you have more freedom. Regardless of the medium, energy is energy.
 

CPMatt

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I had a Spearco A/W intercooler on a twincharged MR2 back in the day and it did an excellent job of keeping temps down with 20psi of boost. I think an a/w setup will definitely lower the temps over an a/a setup, but it's probably not enough to make a difference on all but the the most highly modded cars.

It's also easy to incorporate a reservoir of ice for race situations.

The drawback is more points of failure. If your pump goes out and you don't realize it, you could be in serious trouble.

-Matt
 

That Guy

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So this is what I'm getting from all this....

A standard modded TDI (200hp or less)...that is used mostly as a daily driver:

1) definitely could use an upgrade from the stock SMIC
2) but probably doesn't need an overly huge IC
3) and an A/W IC would probably be overkill


That kinda sucks. I was really starting to get into this.:)


My rough plan was...

- install a "large as will fit" A/W intercooler right close to the turbo and EGR valve.
- install a "large as will fit" heat exchanger in front of the radiator
- install a fan behind the heat exchanger...controlled by a temp switch on the heat exchanger. (optional)
- install a "large as will fit" heat exchanger where the current SMIC is located now. (To be used as my water tank.) I figure that I won't need a big reserve tank, plus using a heat exchanger instead of a standard water tank allows the water in it to be cooled even more. Plus I have a vented fender liner there.
- Haven't figured where to put the pump yet...but can't be too hard.

This setup also has the benefit of keeping everything in the same general location.

I'd probably use a glycol/water mix...to prevent freezing in winter. Which would reduce the efficiency somewhat. But from what I read it won't be much of a change...around 6% less efficient than straight water.

I'm not too concerned about cost. $400 or $1000...not a big deal.


It'd be a fun project. But the increased points of failure are worrisome. Wouldn't want to get stuck 6hrs from home some day.


I'm also watching a thread here about a FMIC that I might get if it's easy enough to install.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=310053

Either way, I need to replace my stock IC. I just haven't decided which basket to put all my eggs in yet.;)
 
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D_Bat

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It can be made reliably if you do it right much like anything. Also your big as can fit idea is a little off. Only thing you need big as can fit is the heat exchanger. Everything else you should size according to your power goals. You can get massive a/w intercoolers. I've got one myself. It's about three feet long, one foot wide, and 4" thick. It's massive for 1k+ hp. I could fit that in the TDI MK3 bay pretty easily if I wanted to. For your application if you wanted to go a/w just get a simple inline a/w cooler from PWR. They work well, don't take up a lot of space, and will the best for air flow.

My VRT setup I use a pretty hefty setup. 3/4" water lines, a Jabsco Cyclone that flow almost 30gal/min and can go up to 8psi (flow reduces with pressure), heat exchanger is a small car radiator, and the actual intercooler... haven't decided between the ebay one I purchased or the one I listed up top that is huge. Holding tank is a 5gal water tank w/ a ice mesh trap so that I can throw a bag of ice into it and have fun. I'm thinking about throwing in a small radiator right before the water enters the intercooler with a co2 or nitrous halo on it for cold moments on the go when I can't prep an ice bag.
 

sonic reducer

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on my old legacy touring wagon ej22t I put together an AWIC for very cheap.

JDM EJ20G AWIC core $75
unidentified motorcycle radiator $10
misc. scrap for brackets $0
3/4" clear plastic tubing $15
hose clamps $5
bilge pump ~$50 from frozenboost
relay $0 radiator fan relay i think, triggered by "run" circuit
silicon tubes for charge pipe $20
scrap exhaust pipe $0

so $175 for a running AWIC setup that had way more cooling capability than a A-A top mount and i didnt have to cut up the car. the installation was not exactly easy, but definitely easier than a FMIC.
 

D_Bat

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That's a cheap setup. I think I paid roughly 175 for my water pump alone. :p Then again, my pump is greatly over rated for the application. :)
 

That Guy

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For your application if you wanted to go a/w just get a simple inline a/w cooler from PWR. They work well, don't take up a lot of space, and will the best for air flow.
That's pretty much what I was planning. The spot that I was thinking to put the awic doesn't give me a lot of room. So "as big as will fit" for the AWIC won't really be that big.:)

As for the heat exchanger...there are some nice ones on Frozenboost.com. About 1inch thick and as large as I can probably fit in the front.

I've never had the front off so I'm not sure what the clearance is there...but I'm hoping a 1" thick heat exchanger won't required any trimming. We'll see.
 

Bob_Fout

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I'm not seeing where air to water has any application other than racing. (as has been said all throughout the thread)
 

Ghastly

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I'm probably going to expose my ignorance, and embarrass my self now.....
What's the pressure drop from the compressor outlet to the intake ports? 5psi maybe? Imagine you build an AWIC integrated into a custom intake manifold using Laminova cores. They say there's only a 0.5 psi drop across those cores. The total pressure drop for the system could be very low. Does that mean your engine would now see higher boost for any given turbo?
http://www.laminova-online.se/
 

That Guy

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I did some more broad searching today on many other sites about this and it seems that people who have experience using both types of systems prefer the air to air system in a daily driver.

I don`t know if they had fans behind their heat exchangers or not....or if that would prevent heat soaking.

But whatever....an FMIC is less complicated, and will meet my limited needs. Now to find a nice big one that`s easy to install and hopefully doesn`t require any trimming.:cool:
 

nicklockard

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The final heat exchanger is what transfers thermal energy to the environment, and regardless whether in an A2A or W2A system needs to be sized adequately for the job (ideally as big as possible). Just because you have an W2A system doesn't automatically mean you can make that final heat exchanger smaller; it just means that you can take the packaging requirement away from where you are more constrained to where you have more freedom. Regardless of the medium, energy is energy.
True, mostly. It also depends on total heat capacity of the system and the expected time-at-peak-load.

For example: you can use a smaller radiator with a A/W intercooled system than a comparable A/A intercooled system if the reserve heat capacity (size of water tank) is enough to absorb the heat generated during the normally short interval most of us spend at high loading, then it can dissipate that heat slowly when you are off peak load.

If you need a system for continuous-duty, high load situations, an A/A intercooler is the right tool for the job...unless you have to remote-locate your heat exchangers, such as in a conversion (engine transplant).

Point is: you CAN size an A/W radiator smaller than a comparable A/A intercooler for 90% of all drivers and driving profiles. Does't mean you should, though. They're more prone to leak and quit circulating.
 

D_Bat

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Lots of companies have done factory A/W. Off the top of my head I know the Ford Lightening, GMC Syclone and Typhoon, Toyota Celica All-Trac Turbo, Subaru Legacy RS, and a few others out there. Possibly some Mustangs. Possibly the Veryron.
 

TDIMeister

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True, mostly. It also depends on total heat capacity of the system and the expected time-at-peak-load.

For example: you can use a smaller radiator with a A/W intercooled system than a comparable A/A intercooled system if the reserve heat capacity (size of water tank) is enough to absorb the heat generated during the normally short interval most of us spend at high loading, then it can dissipate that heat slowly when you are off peak load.
That's true, and depends on what the design objectives are. Water has a specific heat capacity about 4 times that of air per given mass. So, a kilogram of water (approximately one litre volume) would require about 4 kg of air to have the same heat capacity, but on a volumetric basis, that means 3400 litres or 120 cubic feet.

From an energy standpoint, assuming ideal heat exchangers, a certain amount of heat transferred from the charge air will increase the temperature of the same volume of ambient air ~4X as many degrees Celsius as water, although the quantity of heat transferred is the same.

My point is -- and this must not be lost -- is that the water is just a heat transfer medium and a heat sink with a large thermal inertia. The environment is ultimately still ambient air, and heat must be ultimately rejected into the environment from a metal heat exchanger to said air. Heat transfer works in both directions -- of course, only from a higher temperature to a lower temperature -- and what is superficially an advantage for water (a high heat capacity) is also an Achille's heel: water takes longer to heat up X degrees, but it also takes more time for it to cool back down the same X degrees. In transients, an A2A cooler would then have a higher temperature difference to the environment than water. But the problem is more acute -- heat transfer relies on a temperature delta, meaning that a water HX requires a larger area to transfer the same quantity of heat Q through a smaller temperature difference:

Q=h*A(Tmedium-Tenvironment)

The take home message is three-fold:
1) The water in an A2W system MUST circulate and MUST have a second, ambient heat exchanger (sounds trivial but more installations I've seen don't follow this principle than do);
2) A2W have particular advantages to A2A where packaging constraints are prohibitive (e.g. front-mounted HXs in a mid/rear-engine application, or an A2A system would require undesired long tract lengths/volume;
3) The ambient HX should be as large as practical. Using water as a transfer medium does not excuse this requirement and in fact increases the need for a larger HX, as previously explained. The HX that between the charge air and water may be substantially more compact, however; this is the packaging advantage of A2W systems.
 

nicklockard

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That's true, and depends on what the design objectives are. Water has a specific heat capacity about 4 times that of air per given mass. So, a kilogram of water (approximately one litre volume) would require about 4 kg of air to have the same heat capacity, but on a volumetric basis, that means 3400 litres or 120 cubic feet.

From an energy standpoint, assuming ideal heat exchangers, a certain amount of heat transferred from the charge air will increase the temperature of the same volume of ambient air ~4X as many degrees Celsius as water, although the quantity of heat transferred is the same.

My point is -- and this must not be lost -- is that the water is just a heat transfer medium and a heat sink with a large thermal inertia. The environment is ultimately still ambient air, and heat must be ultimately rejected into the environment from a metal heat exchanger to said air. Heat transfer works in both directions -- of course, only from a higher temperature to a lower temperature -- and what is superficially an advantage for water (a high heat capacity) is also an Achille's heel: water takes longer to heat up X degrees, but it also takes more time for it to cool back down the same X degrees. In transients, an A2A cooler would then have a higher temperature difference to the environment than water. But the problem is more acute -- heat transfer relies on a temperature delta, meaning that a water HX requires a larger area to transfer the same quantity of heat Q through a smaller temperature difference:

Q=h*A(Tmedium-Tenvironment)

The take home message is three-fold:
1) The water in an A2W system MUST circulate and MUST have a second, ambient heat exchanger (sounds trivial but more installations I've seen don't follow this principle than do);
2) A2W have particular advantages to A2A where packaging constraints are prohibitive (e.g. front-mounted HXs in a mid/rear-engine application, or an A2A system would require undesired long tract lengths/volume;
3) The ambient HX should be as large as practical. Using water as a transfer medium does not excuse this requirement and in fact increases the need for a larger HX, as previously explained. The HX that between the charge air and water may be substantially more compact, however; this is the packaging advantage of A2W systems.
Very well described. The A/W/A heat exchange system works well for some space-constrained applications. I'd say a design goal often overlooked in many IC systems is how much do you want the peak temperature reduced? And are you willing to put up with warmer temperatures in between full-load accelerations? And, what $ are you willing to pay?

What about a hybrid? A smaller than usual A/A intercooler with integral water tank--or heavier gauge steel welded to the side just to add thermal mass so that you get the peak-shaving benefit of larger thermal mass (at the cost of slightly warmer off-peak temps), the small, compact size of an A/A, and no need for a pump, so no failure points?
 

Houpty GT

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Very well described. The A/W/A heat exchange system works well for some space-constrained applications. I'd say a design goal often overlooked in many IC systems is how much do you want the peak temperature reduced? And are you willing to put up with warmer temperatures in between full-load accelerations? And, what $ are you willing to pay?
What about a hybrid? A smaller than usual A/A intercooler with integral water tank--or heavier gauge steel welded to the side just to add thermal mass so that you get the peak-shaving benefit of larger thermal mass (at the cost of slightly warmer off-peak temps), the small, compact size of an A/A, and no need for a pump, so no failure points?
If you want to add thermal mass, then water is going to do a much better job. It has higher heat capacity, conducts better, and is lighter. Seems kind or like a A/W intercooler though.

A/W intercoolers came on some Lotus Esprits.
 
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nicklockard

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I'd like to see an IC built from heat pipe technology.

Benefits:

1. Acts as a thermal diode. Heat transfer goes one way.

2. Can transport heat only when temperature over critical threshold (b.p. of working fluid).

3. And maintains constant temps.

4. Can be remotely routed/located.


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D_Bat

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You are essentially using heat pipes but instead of metal rods you are using water to move the heat to a remote cooler. You would still need some sort way of getting the heat out of the air which would take an intercooler and if you did it the way you are thinking you would need to run heat pipes off of it to another radiator of sorts to get rid of the heat. Seems counter productive if you ask me.
 

nicklockard

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You are essentially using heat pipes but instead of metal rods you are using water to move the heat to a remote cooler. You would still need some sort way of getting the heat out of the air which would take an intercooler and if you did it the way you are thinking you would need to run heat pipes off of it to another radiator of sorts to get rid of the heat. Seems counter productive if you ask me.
Not really. Heat pipes work on a fundamentally different heat transfer mechanism: phase change of a working fluid. i.e. latent heat of vaporization. The fluid, typically pure water under reduced pressures, boils in the hot section and carries heat toward a cold radiating section, where it's transferred by heat of condensation.

Of course you need a radiator. That is always the case. But heat pipes carry a LOT of heat in a light weight, flexible package without need for pumps and no leakage likely.


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D_Bat

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So.... what you are saying is you want to have an intercooler to take the heat out of the charged air, transfer it through heat pipes that are connected to a radiator/intercooler in the front to dissipate the heat. Once again sounds like an inefficient air to air intercooler now. :p If I'm not seeing it correctly then please explain more.
 
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