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Other VW Group TD(I)s To keep with the theme of VW Diesels, this message area is for discussion of other VW Group Diesels. Yes, TD's are also welcome.

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Old February 4th, 2018, 18:08   #1
sjurea
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Default Non-start ALH, fast clicking from engine bay, GP-light blinking fast

Today was one those cold Norwegian days. Temperature had dropped somewhere below -20 Celsius during the night, and the battery just gave two slow churns before giving out. I was visiting my dad, and he hooked it to his wall-powered battery-helper. That got it going briefly. Briefly on every try. It would start, rev up to 1800 rpm, and die instantly; all within three seconds or so. I figured I'd change the 109-relay, as I had a new spare from Meyle in the car. Changing it fixed the problem, and I drove off. I started and stopped three times for errands, and it worked fine. Then I drove 80 kilometers, and stopped at a gas station to check tire pressure. It would not start again, despite repeated attempts.

When turning the ignition on, the GP-light blinks quickly; at around four times per second. I figured it might be the crankshaft position sensor overheating, as I had just changed the 109. My tachometer-needle is wobbly too. It has been wobbly for about two thirds of a year, but has not given any CPS-code yet. I let the car sit for two hours with an open hood in -19 celsius. The engine block was cold to the touch, but it would still not start. That's how I left it. I haven't been able to take the codes this time, as didn't have the equipment with with, a had to leave it stranded 65 kilometers away.
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Old February 4th, 2018, 18:26   #2
Vince Waldon
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Yup, you'll need to find a way to scan it for codes with a VAG-specific scanner... otherwise there's a thousand things it could be.

The flashing glow plug light means the car has some clues.
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Old February 4th, 2018, 18:47   #3
sjurea
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I forgot to mention there is rapid clicking from the engine bay, at about the same pace as the GP-light. Yes, I will check for codes when I get close to the car again.
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Old February 4th, 2018, 19:01   #4
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Test voltage at the battery when cranking. It's probably down around 8 volts. I don't know what that is in metric.
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Old February 5th, 2018, 02:21   #5
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I don't think it's the battery. We charged it for three hours with a 7 amp charger/84W. It churned long and well, and can churn some more. I've run out of battery with this car before, and it has not acted this way.

Last edited by sjurea; February 5th, 2018 at 02:41. Reason: typos
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Old February 5th, 2018, 05:53   #6
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If you have a multimeter, it takes 30 seconds to test and verify that it's good. It will take longer to get out the MM and put it away than it will to test the battery.
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Old February 9th, 2018, 11:43   #7
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So, I got the car towed the 65 km back to start. Upon trying the ignition, it started flawlessly, for some reason. It's not been glowing, it seems, up until now, and I've been parking on inclines since it got cold. (I've checked the plugs and fuses atop the battery, but the plugs are at 1 Ohm, and the fuses are whole. I couldn't find any voltage behind the GP-relay, though.)

The good start after the tow did not repeat. Upon turning the car off, it usually won't start until it has rested a few hours, but can be less. In the meantime, there is quick flashing of the GP-light, with synchronous clicking from the engine bay. Seems to work just fine, as long as it starts.

Here are some fresh codes:

VCDS-Lite Version: Release 1.2
Friday, 09 February 2018, 18:37:57.
Control Module Part Number: 038 906 018 FK
Component and/or Version: 1,9l R4 EDC 0000SG 2169
Software Coding: 00002
Work Shop Code: WSC 06402
VCID: 64BB2F93E743
5 Faults Found:
17971 - Quantity Adjuster (N146): Lower Limit Reached
P1563 - 35-00 - -
17664 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P1256 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
17969 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P1561 - 35-00 - Please Register/Activate
17660 - Commencement of Injection Valve (N108): Open or Short to Ground
P1252 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
17655 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P1247 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent

Then I cleared the codes, and scanned again:

VCDS-Lite Version: Release 1.2
Friday, 09 February 2018, 18:40:10.
Control Module Part Number: 038 906 018 FK
Component and/or Version: 1,9l R4 EDC 0000SG 2169
Software Coding: 00002
Work Shop Code: WSC 06402
VCID: 64BB2F93E743
1 Fault Found:
17655 - Needle Lift Sensor (G80): Open or Short to Plus
P1247 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent

Edit: explanation of codes from ross-tech:
17664/P1256 - Engine Coolant Temperature Circuit (G62): Open / Short to B+
17969/P1561 - No information found
17660/P1252 - Something with timings
17655/P1247/004679 - Needle Lift Sensor (G80): Open or Short to Plus

17664/P1256: Yes, I have clear thermostat-symptoms also. Barely reaches 90 celsius, now in the winter, with radiator-shielding.

Last edited by sjurea; February 9th, 2018 at 13:11.
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Old February 9th, 2018, 13:28   #8
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The needle lift sensor can cause havok with quite a few things; especially starting. The wires get frayed with age sometimes, and can even short against each other or short against the injector body itself. The needle lift sensor is responsible for pump timing. The P1247 is also a needle lift sensor error code, so you might start looking for a replacement #3 injector body. DBW says the #3 injectors aren't "re-wire-able" and I would trust him on that: you might talk to Mark at DFIS Portland and see if he has any #3 injectors available. I recently had to replace a #3 injector and I purchased one from Mark.
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Old February 10th, 2018, 05:05   #9
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I forgot to mention that the needle lift sensor code has been with the car since August 2017 (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=481081). This new problem is only a week old now.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 15:16   #10
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Today, the car died on the middle of the road. It would not start immediately after, but did so after five minutes. It did not run smoothly, skipping beats every or every other second. I waited twenty minutes with the hood open, and tried again. It started and ran fine the last three kilometers home. Upon arrival, I measured the resistance in the needle lift sensor: 97,9 Ohms. Then the voltage on the other side of the contact: 11,08. I calibrate the multimeter every six months or so against a zener-diode.




While the needle lift sensor was disconnected, I tried starting the car. It would not start, catching on only slightly. After I put the connection back together, it still would not start, still catching only slightly. I took it apart again, to check that I had not severed any cables, but the cables looked fine, and the resistance and voltage were the same as the first time. It still would not start after that.

Last edited by sjurea; February 12th, 2018 at 15:20. Reason: Added essential info
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Old February 12th, 2018, 16:01   #11
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I took the codes again also. To do that, I had to try the key several times for the GP-light to indicate that the brain was fired up. This resembled a 109-error to me, but I changed the 109-relay a week ago.

VCDS-Lite Version: Release 1.2
Monday, 12 February 2018, 23:44:10.
Control Module Part Number: 038 906 018 FK
Component and/or Version: 1,9l R4 EDC 0000SG 2169
Software Coding: 00002
Work Shop Code: WSC 06402
VCID: 64BB2F93E743
3 Faults Found:
17655 - Needle Lift Sensor (G80): Open or Short to Plus
P1247 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
17664 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P1256 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
18008 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P1600 - 35-00 - Please Register/Activate

The new one here is the 10008/P1600 - "Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incorrect Correlation".
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Old February 14th, 2018, 08:10   #12
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Today I expected it to start, as it had cooled during the night. I turned the ignition. The GP-light came on and glowed continuously for maybe ten seconds. I don't remember how long it is supposed to glow when glowing. I connected VCDS and deleted the engine codes listed in the previous post, and tried to start it. It started right up, and ran fine in idle, before I turned it off after half a minute or so.

To make clear what happens when it is warm and won't start: Everything comes on, but usually not the GP-light, and the starter engine turns the engine, but doesn't fire, or fires only slightly until it has sat in the cold for a while. Here's a video of it a non-start: https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=bhpdmotBJfA I usually crank it longer than in the video.

Notice there is no tach-response when cranking. Could this be a crankshaft position sensor-malfunction? I measured the CPS last August at 1140 Ohms. From what I can find, a new one is to be somewhere between 800-900 Ohms. How much is too much?

Last edited by sjurea; February 14th, 2018 at 08:49. Reason: Added video
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Old February 15th, 2018, 11:42   #13
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any special reason why you have not yet replaced the #3 injector as recommended here?. Clearing codes does not fix a problem and you seem to be getting the same code repeatedly
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Old February 15th, 2018, 15:08   #14
sjurea
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@miningman Thanks for the feedback :-). I have the code, but the needle lift sensor has the right resistance and voltage on direct measurement when in the no-start condition. Furthermore, a needle lift sensor failure should make an engine run rough, and perhaps put it in limp-mode, but should it make an electrical no-start condition, where the GP-light does not come on, and only at operating temperature? Can it kill a nicely running engine instantly, and then only when it's at operating temperature?

So, I have a shaky tacho. It's shaky no matter what. I have a CPS that is about 250 Ohm out of spec, and I'm guessing this sensor gives the tacho its signal. When in the no-start condition, with hot engine, there is no tacho-response. I have a code, that is related to the CPS: Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incorrect Correlation. I read somewhere on the forum that faulty crankshaft-sensors may not give any code. Others have remarked that these sensors can give an electrical no-start-condition, and regularly kill running engines out of the blue.

This is my reasoning for not starting with the injectors. Changing the injectors probably would be cheaper for me, as I could do that myself, but I can't get at that weird, rusted CPS-bolt with any tool I have, so I'll outsource that one.

Last edited by sjurea; February 15th, 2018 at 15:11. Reason: typo
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