Lucky I took car in for work today

jptbay

Veteran Member
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Aug 9, 2007
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Thunder Bay
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I am aware that when I checked my timing in Vag it was moving around, but not violently. At the time I thought it was my IP and had that rebuilt by Gilles at Performance Diesel Injection here in the GTA. This did not resolve the "bouncing" timing issue.MrVermin
When the IP was changed out, there was no sign of cam sprocket issues?

What mechanic changed the IP?
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
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What happened to this thread? Just because someone alludes that it might not be DCB's fault it dies?

The 'minions' are confused
I was waiting on the better pictures that were forthcoming.

I am sure the OP will post back with an update and is probably checking things out a little more, at least that's what I would be doing.

I would hope that if the installer is not found to be at fault an apology would be offered. If something other than that, I hope we get the scoop, because I am interested.
 

Abacus

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I wonder why they call it a monkey wrench? ;)
Technically, it's a Moncky wrench, not monkey.

Charles Moncky

"That handy tool, the "monkey-wrench", is not so named because it is a handy thing to monkey with, or for any kindred reason. "Monkey" is not its name at all, but "Moncky." Charles Moncky, the inventor of it, sold his patent for $2000, and invested the money in a house..."
 

2ManyKMfor1Tank

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Technically, it's a Moncky wrench, not monkey.

Charles Moncky

"That handy tool, the "monkey-wrench", is not so named because it is a handy thing to monkey with, or for any kindred reason. "Monkey" is not its name at all, but "Moncky." Charles Moncky, the inventor of it, sold his patent for $2000, and invested the money in a house..."
You needed to read the line after that...

"However, this was refuted by historical and patent research in the late nineteenth century."
 

dr_p

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Well I guess Abacus called it correclty as if it was DCB's fault the chirping from the usual suspects would be going on ad nauseum.
 

Wingnut

Top Post Dawg
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Just to clarify a few things as the original post is kind of vague and doesn't give the whole picture.

I saw the cam pulley in question at the meet on Wednesday night. The breaks in the pulley were obviously caused by the removal of the pulley. The car was not run in that condition as the metal clearly has fresh break marks. If it had been run any length of time, there would be wear marks on either side of the breaks from the tension the belt puts on the pulley. It also would not have run very long before the pulley would have failed.

Having said that, MrVermin said that the cracks were visible before the pulley was removed. By that, I think he means you could see the hairline of the crack, but the pulley was not physically broken when it was still on the cam. So the pulley was allegedly compromised, but not nearly to the extent that is depicted in the pictures. While the pictures are graphic in nature, they were a result of the removal process and should be taken with that in mind.

Now the question is, why did it take so much force to remove it? Was it torqued too tight? And regardless of the condition of the pulley, if it was overtorqued, it would have no effect on the issues with the lifters. If the lifter bores and lifters were damaged, what caused that? Inferior oil? Improper instalation? Defective parts? Added stress from a reprofiled cam? I am no expert and have not seen the internals of the engine, so I cannot comment on a cause. There are multiple reasons why it could have happened.
 

Wingnut

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You know, I understand people wanting to keep things on the QT and not make any waves, but it would be helpful to the rest of the board if stuff like this was known.

People should be able to stand on their own reputation, not on the perceived reputation given to them by others.

Maybe I'm starting to get a little ornery in my old age, but if you screw up...man up, and take the good with the bad. We all make mistakes, but what ticks me off is when someone makes a mistake and doesn't want others to know about it because it would be a 'blemish' on their reputaion.


I was waiting on the better pictures that were forthcoming.

I am sure the OP will post back with an update and is probably checking things out a little more, at least that's what I would be doing.

I would hope that if the installer is not found to be at fault an apology would be offered. If something other than that, I hope we get the scoop, because I am interested.
I find it interesting that you are the one who called out the OP to name names when he clearly didn't want to. And then a few posts later, you do a 180 and suggest he should have "checked things out a little more" and should appologize to the alleged offender if it turns out not to be his fault.

I don't agree that naming names was the right thing to do so soon in the thread. But when people get angry or upset, they tend to lash out and rant. I have been tempted to do it MANY times in the past. Even to the point where I have composed a super long post and re-read it several times, but never ended up hitting the 'submit' button because I too don't like to make waves. I can't speak for either of the parties involved, but we are all human and we all make mistakes. Its how you deal with those mistakes that determines the character of the person.
 
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Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
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I find it interesting that you are the one who called out the OP to name names when he clearly didn't want to. And then a few posts later, you do a 180 and suggest he should have "checked things out a little more" and should appologize to the alleged offender if it turns out not to be his fault.

I don't agree that naming names was the right thing to do so soon in the thread. But when people get angry or upset, they tend to lash out and rant. I have been tempted to do it MANY times in the past. Even to the point where I have composed a super long post and re-read it several times, but never ended up hitting the 'submit' button because I too don't like to make waves. I can't speak for either of the parties involved, but we are all human and we all make mistakes. Its how you deal with those mistakes that determines the character of the person.

Why do you find it interesting? I want the truth to come out, and it looks like it did, for the most part.

If he had not named names, this would have festered and rotted creating even more hate and discontent. HIS error was not doing his homework and making assumptions right off the bat, assumptions which were not supported by rational conclusions. The pictures seemed to show a different story, which has all but disappeared now, and the accused wrongdoer may be able to sleep a little better and since they run a business, not having their name improperly dragged through the mud.

I have had to fix screwups from guru's, yet this cannot be mentioned online because of some unwritten rule. In a few cases, there is no question the screwup was a direct result of the 'guru' and not something that happened afterward, and with a little more detail, I'm sure this would have been the case here as well. Yes, we are all human, but this excuse seems to be used a lot more in recent times when a little more due diligence and attention to detail would preclude the necessity.

So yes, I wanted the person named, and stand by that. But, I also wanted the WHOLE story to be told, with all the facts, and not just some witch hunt. The facts tell a different story than what the OP posted, at least for what we have been given.

If the cracks were stress cracks and were there before the sprocket was removed, how did overtorquing the bolt cause them. I still have not heard an explanation. I still want to hear more about it. I have no stake in the matter, have never met the affected parties, and have taken no 'sides'.

My point, in case it was missed, is that if you are willing to name names, be sure you have your own house in order before you do so.
 

dr_p

Veteran Member
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Location
Woodbridge, ON
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I agree with Abacus. There are 3 threads now started on this subject. TDI 101 (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=347966 ), this one, and the other one requesting the 'high res pics'.

But where are the 'hi res pics to follow'? or were they abandoned when multiple non-biased sources suggested that the the alleged overtorquing (sp?) would not have caused the damage and that even an over-torqued state would not cause damage like that if properly removed.

It is difficult to get the whole story when the moderator is chummy with the poster (as noted by the Brampton get together,and subsequent editorial) and the OP will no longer post. More than likely this thread will be locked shortly saving the OP from following up....
 
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Wingnut

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I am not taking sides on this one. There were 30+ people at the GTG. That doesn't mean everyone is best buds. I only went there to meet up with someone to buy some wheels and happened to see the offending part as it was being passed around.

When I saw it, I told the OP that his thread was misleading and that the damage was clearly caused by the removal process, and that is why I posted earlier about what I saw at the GTG. If anything, my comments were detrimental to the OP, not helpful.

Personally, I think the OP made a mistake in naming names so soon. It seems he had a moment of weakness, perhaps nudged a little by another member suggesting he spill the beans. That same member then turned around and suggested the OP spoke too soon and should have looked into it further before speaking up. That would have been good advice from the start, but it was too late, the damage was done.

I have not deleted or edited any posts in this thread to protect anyone. Nor have any of the associated parties asked me to. I want the truth to come out just as much as everyone. I cannot make anyone post, so if the OP doesn't give us an update, there is not much I can do about it.
 

grawil

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I have no affiliation with either of these guys and I dont have it in for anyone. I have never met them. But if the OP wants to slander a respected mechanic who makes a living fixing VWs and is an all-around-useful member then he deserves what he gets. How many other local mechanics offer free and useful advice on these forums, loan out their specialized tools to members, and (I gather) offers members a pretty good deal on parts/labour. Both MrVermin and Wroth should be wearing this one and not 100% VDUB TECH.

Wingnut said:
Having said that, MrVermin said that the cracks were visible before the pulley was removed.
Nigel, I know you like to squat on the fence, but this is pretty darn unlikely. Go look at a cam sprocket and measure its hub. Here's an interesting thread with input from some experts regarding the spec torque. Does anyone really think that those beefy 12mm bolts are going to hold 200 ft/lbs? The guy at Wroth who removed it, broke it. It is an engine. Sh*t happens. Own up and move on.

Wingnut said:
Now the question is, why did it take so much force to remove it? Was it torqued too tight? And regardless of the condition of the pulley, if it was overtorqued, it would have no effect on the issues with the lifters. If the lifter bores and lifters were damaged, what caused that? Inferior oil? Improper instalation? Defective parts? Added stress from a reprofiled cam? I am no expert and have not seen the internals of the engine, so I cannot comment on a cause. There are multiple reasons why it could have happened.
And that is the PC reply that someone should have given in the very first instance. Too bad it wasnt VDUB TECH himself but it doesnt sound like MrVermin even bothered to contact him before posting the Wroth story.
Franko6 is the cam/valve/head guru and he agrees with what I wrote: if the lifters are worn, then you better get a dial out and check the reground cam is to spec. Being an engineer, I'd also check its hardness and compare with the lifters. Lots of manufacturers only warranty cam/lifters as a matched set. Certainly in every lab and race engine I've worked on.

I have asked this before and I will ask again:
Was a break in lube, break in oil, and a ZDDP additive used initially? What oil was used? And where are the photos of the lifters?

MrMervin said:
2001 Jetta TDI:RC3 Tune, Sprint 520's, Colt Stage2 Cam, PD150 Intake, PD RacePipe
Fact is that the OP is not capable of working on an engine himself and must trust his mechanic completely. The guys at wroth told him a story and with that he figures this is VDUB TECHs fault. Somewhere there is a locked/deleted thread where these two have had it out before but I cant be bothered to search for it. Fact is that the engine is being run well outside the original design specs and I cant say it any better than Uberhares sig: Fast, cheap, reliable… pick your 2..

LNXGUY said:
Grawil, the original Ontario forum troll is back!
Sharp and witty as always, Bill. Do feel free to chime in with something useful when you have time.
 
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dr_p

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Woodbridge, ON
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Wingnut, your right, I'm biased. DCB is my mechanic, and the mechanic I have referred all my collegues to without question. So when something like this comes up I just ask that the people involved are accountable. Don't tell me there is a smoking gun; don't say your going to post "high res photos"; don't ignore the facts, and don't dissapear from the forums after starting multiple threads on the topic.

For the most part we are all adults here. The whole, "I was angry and couldn't control my rage so I started a thread" defence is weak. In the real world it's called slander and unless you can back it up your thread is without merit.

Don't get me wrong guys, if DCB messed up they messed up, but if they didn't and your wrong after accusing, at the very least don't pull a toronto star, and post a retraction.
 

dr_p

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or should we wait for the "does anyone think that possibly, maybe, over torquing could cause this damage 7 months later" thread results......
 

Wingnut

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Grawil, I wrote 'MrVermin said' and in the next sentence I used the word allegidly. I did not state it as fact. But you are right (I can't beleive I just wrote that), I should have chosen my words more carefully.

I said it before and I will say it again, I agree that the damage was clearly caused by the removal of the sprocket and that the OP did a poor job of explaining that. Thats is why I chimed in with my observations of the sprocket at the GTG. No high res pic is going to change anyones opinion that the damage was caused during removal. The pictures were graphic in nature and should have been posted with more info. (ie: Mechanic B said that the sprocket was on so tight, it broke during the removal).

I also don't agree with the OP naming names so soon. But what can I do about it now? If I delete this whole thread, some people are going to say that I am protecting the OP, others are going to say I am protecting the original tech to save his name. I can't win either way. What I should do is merge the 2 threads together in the TDI 101 forum and let another moderator with no connection to either parties take control.
 
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grawil

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If you toss out the busted cam sprocket, you are left with a few worn lifters after a year of driving on a high-milage engine. It is hard to attribute failure to a faulty install after a year. As you said before, many possibilities.I want to see photos of the lifters and see measurements of the lifters/cam. Would be nice if VDUB TECH can comment on the source he used for the lifters and mrvermin on the oil/additives he used. I hope wroth took a very good look at that cam/head before they sent mrvermin on his way...
 

VDUB TECH

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Metal nerd makes a great puller for the alh motor .(Yes there tools work so good that no damage can be done)just sayin.Overtightened sprockets/ bolts is a mechanics daily routine,happens all the time.I've never seen a sprocket like that before whether too tight or way too tight it just doesn't happen.Maybe it was overtightened , a phone call could have corrected it, plain and simple.A little too tight is always better than a little too loose.I also have digital/audio/illuminated trq wrenches made in USA and use them on a daily basis.If I made a mistake or my helper, I most definately make it right, always have and always will.If humans didn't make mistakes how would they learn?
 

oldpoopie

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Metal nerd makes a great puller for the alh motor .(Yes there tools work so good that no damage can be done)just sayin.
While i agree the metalnerd puller is badass, it does not protect from stupidity. I could see the sprocket being cracked by someone failing to loosen the cam bolt a few turns first, or even possibly an impact wrench on the puller. Either way its removal damage in my opinion.
 
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