Crank seal replacement

ejallison1

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Location
Kansas, Illinois
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU, 97 Passat TDI AAZ, 04 Golf TDI PD, 01 NB TDI ALH
I know I am over analyzing this but I am pretty much a novice at wrenching. I just pulled the front crankshaft seal on my 98 Jetta TDI by removing the carrier. I am concerned whether I should use the newer style seal (teflon) that Frank speaks of or would it be all right to use the old type with the spring? I haven't examined the crankshaft closely to see if the metal spring has cut a groove in the shaft. Also a little concerned about how deep to place the new seal in the carrier since this thread explains that you don't want to place it exactly where the old one was sitting. Old one was even with the engine side of carrier. I am posting a few pictures for anyone else who has limited experience. Sometimes help to see a picture of what you're getting into.







Here is pic of the backside of timing belt cog on the crankshaft. It was a burger getting it off. Definetly using a new bolt to reattach, oil the threads and panhead, 66ft/lbs torque and then turn additional 90 degrees. Don't want that baby slipping.




Here is pic of carrier prior to removal. Note that the smooth side of the seal is pointing outward. Also the D shape mates with the D on the cog.



Another pic of carrier-note there are 20 bolts on the oil pan-two of them are well hidden by the trans housing. I am leaking oil someplace so am replacing all 3 seals on front of engine (crankshaft, camshaft and intermediate shaft seals), vlave cover gasket with new grommets and the oil pan gasket. Don't think oil pan gasket has ever been changed nor the crankshaft.



Since I was changing the oil pan gasket I elected to wedge some wood between the counterweights on the crankshaft and the engine block. I had to look up what a counterweight was so for that crowd I am posting the following pic. If I had the time to wait acouple of days I would have requested Franks set-up. Also liked the idea of using the counterholder that comes with the timing belt tools in a previous post on this thread-already had them but takes two people.



Tomorrow hopefully will start putting it all back together. Takes me a little while. Couldn't own this car without the info on this site. Much appreciated!!
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
I do believe the Bentley manual states TO NOT oil the threads (or "clean and dry threads") for the bolt when installing, but check on that. Oiling will increase the tightness obtained on the first torquing and you could end up over tightening it on the final 90 degree turn.

--Nate
 

ymz

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 12, 2003
Location
Between Toronto & Montreal
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI Wagon, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon
I do believe the Bentley manual states TO NOT oil the threads (or "clean and dry threads") for the bolt when installing
Different engine... for the AHU/1Z you do lightly oil the threads and shoulder... it also has a lower torque rating that sort of makes up for it...

Yuri
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
Here is what we do here... use the pulley holder but take out the fingers, and use the holes to put OLD crank bolts through


Interesting. This is what the old bolts looked like when I used them last to do the same thing. They didn't fail, but the next one I'll get some grade 12.9 bolts to use or will just buy the holding tool for $65. Never thought of using the rotating bar though, great idea, it's certainly thick enough.



And in response to this:

Dodoma said:
You need not buy any special tools such as "3415" to counterhold the crankshaft and loosen the center bolt. Use atleast 18 inches pipe wrench or longer one available at Harbor Tools for about $7-8 and Home Depot for $16 (Husky brand). Fit the pipe wrench teeths over the crankshaft sprocklet or gear valleys and adjust the jaw so that it prevents the crankshaft from rotating. I have used this method many times on 1.6 and since the gear on 1.9 is similar, it should work.
That is just a GREAT way to screw up the crank sprocket teeth by creating a burr on them. That burr will then eat the timing belt.
 
Last edited:

runonbeer

Maintenance EnthusiastVendor
Joined
Apr 15, 2002
Location
Austin, TX/Chapel Hill, NC
TDI
'00 Golf 02M, '10 Golf 02E, '02 UTE 02M
It looks to me like you've got an ALH crank installed in that motor. Go with the Teflon. Spring seals are for losers.

I know I am over analyzing this but I am pretty much a novice at wrenching. I just pulled the front crankshaft seal on my 98 Jetta TDI by removing the carrier. I am concerned whether I should use the newer style seal (teflon) that Frank speaks of or would it be all right to use the old type with the spring? I haven't examined the crankshaft closely to see if the metal spring has cut a groove in the shaft. Also a little concerned about how deep to place the new seal in the carrier since this thread explains that you don't want to place it exactly where the old one was sitting. Old one was even with the engine side of carrier. I am posting a few pictures for anyone else who has limited experience. Sometimes help to see a picture of what you're getting into.







Here is pic of the backside of timing belt cog on the crankshaft. It was a burger getting it off. Definetly using a new bolt to reattach, oil the threads and panhead, 66ft/lbs torque and then turn additional 90 degrees. Don't want that baby slipping.




Here is pic of carrier prior to removal. Note that the smooth side of the seal is pointing outward. Also the D shape mates with the D on the cog.

 

Sleet

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Location
Kalamazoo, MI(home) Provo, UT(work)
TDI
jetta, 98, black
For anyone with an A3/B4 who might be reading this and wants to go the PTFE / Teflon route read this post. It sheads a little light on why these PTFE seals leak on the intermediate shaft on the A3/B4.

The rest of you might want to just file this PDF somewhere.

-J
 

skan

Member
Joined
May 8, 2007
Location
Barrie, Ontario
TDI
2002 TDI Golf ALH
My 2002 GOLF TDI is 245000km now I am planning to change timing belt change this weekend, I did my last timing belt when it was 108000km. I did not change camshaft and crankshaft seals I had the seals ready if there is any oil leak to change on my last timing belt change and end up not changing since no oil leak.

What it the crankshaft and camshaft seal change interval? I don't want to change if there is no oil leak this time as well I am worried if I will mess up the seal installation and have a oil leak also I don't want to redo timing belt if I see a oil leak before another 150000km.

Any suggestion from guys changed Teflon seals is it easy to do? or should I just wait till see oil leak then change? what is the high millage for seals?

Thanks
Skan
 

ymz

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 12, 2003
Location
Between Toronto & Montreal
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI Wagon, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon
If you don't see evidence of leakage, leave them alone. Too many people wind up with a leak after a replacement of a still-functioning seal. At your next timing belt you'll probably want to change the oil pump chain and tensioner, and at that time you'll be changing the crank seal anyway...

Yuri
 

jayb79

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 20, 2000
Location
Exeter,NH
If it aint broke don't fix it. My NB front seal started leaking around 350k miles. It won't be horrible if it starts leaking get it on the next belt change.
 

BC Stink Bug

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Location
Bellingham, WA & White Rock, BC
TDI
2001 VW Beetle TDI 5spd
I just did the crank seal on my 2001 alh. I dropped the oil pan and plastic windage tray and then used the wood jammed in the crank and block counter hold technique.

I wouldn't feel sure about the seal between the seal carrier and the oil pan without dropping the pan. It would be really easy to just push a bead of sealant into the oil pan and still not get a good seal. Dropping the pan, cleaning it all up gets it done for sure. Be fast, that fancy sealant waits for no man.

I damaged one PTFE seal trying to not use the proper tool. I removed the seal and carrier from the engine, cleaned everything up and installed the seal in the carrier off the engine. Super easy. Getting that assembly on the crank... not so!

If you perfectly filled the contours of the end of the crank with electrical tape, especially the final small ridge, you might have a chance of doing it. I couldn't. I got the proper tool after some begging from VW.

This gave me the opportunity to play with one slightly damaged PTFE seal. Just for fun I massaged the edges of the seal and then left it for hours to relax. As I had figured, it doesn't move much, or at least it didn't on mine. The reinz and felpro instructions on ptfe seals don't mention finger stretching, or didn't in anything I read. Seems all the stretch they can handle is the slight oversize of the installer guide. The edge is really thin. There is no way I could do that as evenly by hand.

Here is a pic of the real tool I used. That middle guide is the one that would be tough to fake. If you look at the pic, inside the middle piece, you can just see the transition. It is thin as a piece of paper. Good luck doing that same distortion by hand, evenly, racing against the sealant and doing it perfectly. Yeah, no pressure... You only will have to take the crank bolt off again if you get it wrong and can't tell, and a slightly messed up lip will be hidden so you wont be able to tell.



The pic also shows the slight inset the tool gives the seal.

It is all back together and running like a champ and drip free, for now...

One thing that might help you getting that crank bolt done correctly is to really think about how hard you are going to be pushing, along with mount and tool flex. Make sure you have enough clearance for the last bit of turn. You do not want to be like me and hit the ground with your tool and still have a smidge left to go. Is that the smidge that would let my crank bolt let go? I wasn't going to find out. It was a huge battle to get that last bit. It would have been much easier to have done the last bit in one great go.

Making clear reference marks will let you know how far things have turned. I used a red lumber crayon and it worked great. Worked pretty well on the flywheel, too.

Thanks again to TDIClub and all this great info and Gold Key VW Parts in White Rock for getting this hooked up over the holidays.

Just to recap, wood counterheld crank and all current vw parts, sealant and installer tools worked great for me. YMMV!
 

d9

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2000
Location
NC USA
TDI
01 Jetta
88 ft lbs + 90 degrees?

So has anyone ever gotten 88 ft/lbs + 90 degrees?

I got 88 Ft/Lbs today and all I could crank out of it was the width of a well used sharpie..

Maybe an eight of an inch, 5 degrees maybe.

No way could I get 90 degrees ever...

New bolt, huge breaker bar, even put a Snap-on impact wrench on it.

nope....

Dave
 

TonyJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 15, 2005
Location
Tucson, Az
TDI
'15 Jetta TDI SE / '06 Jetta TDI DSG Pkg0 / '96 Passat TDI
Do you have a crank yank tool?

Tony
Sent from my e-diesel fleet
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
With a crank holder and a 19mm 1/2" socket on a bar with an extension pipe, I have never had an issue getting 90 degrees.

Metalnerd makes a crank yank tool, and some of us make our own:



Either way works. I mark the edge of the bolt with some paint so I know when 90 deg has been reached. You really don't want to be at less than 90 degrees with a new bolt - it won't have the clamping force needed, and the crank sprocket will loosen over time causing far greater problems.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
So has anyone ever gotten 88 ft/lbs + 90 degrees?

I got 88 Ft/Lbs today and all I could crank out of it was the width of a well used sharpie..

Maybe an eight of an inch, 5 degrees maybe.

No way could I get 90 degrees ever...

New bolt, huge breaker bar, even put a Snap-on impact wrench on it.

nope....

Dave
Dave, if you don't change your method, you are going to blow your crank sprocket off and ruin your cylinder head or more... We know people talk about taking the bolt off with a 1/2" breaker bar. We say don't do it, or you'll end up with a 1/2" BROKEN bar. You need a 3/4" x 19mm 12pt socket.

We have our own design 'redneck' tool that bolts onto the crank sprocket and goes between the control arm and the drive shaft. Don't worry, you won't bend either of these items when you are torquing about 285 ft lbs.

If you turn the tire all the way to the right and use two foot-long extensions, you can stand at the side of the car and press down. I'm no little guy, but I use a 4 ft cheater bar on the 3/4" breaker bar.

We rest the extension on a block of wood, like a short 4 x 4. Fold the mirror to the side of the right side of the vehicle to keep it out of the way. Mark the crank bolt. Push the cheater bar down by the side of the vehicle. Check mark for 1/4 rotation. That is the way it's done.
 

RIP TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 16, 2000
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
TDI
'15 GSW SE 6MT...... '01 Golf GLS 5MT.... '96 Passat Variant....
I find it interesting that crank bolt torque for the 1Z/AHU is 66 ft-lbs + 90 degrees with threads & head flange oiled, while the ALH is 88 ft-lbs + 90 degrees with dry threads.

I'm not sure how the two bolts compare in terms of diameter, length, pitch and grade (the heads are quite different), but if they are comparable, I wonder if the two torque specs result in a similar amount of bolt stretch since oiling the threads/flange allows the bolt to stretch more for a given angular rotation.

On the 1Z/AHU, some report that breaking the bolt loose results in a loud crack followed by a sudden release of torque. I suspect that in these cases, the threads were not oiled when originally installed. When I loosened the bolt on one of my AHUs, which I had installed, properly oiled, 9 years earlier, the release of torque was very progressive and gradual with no cracking noise; I could almost feel the bolt progressively "unstretch".

I suppose I'm wondering why VW chose to eliminate the thread-oiling part of the spec in the ALH? Was it because too many techs were neglecting to oil the threads, resulting in loosening bolts with accompanying timing gear/crank snout damage?
 

ymz

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 12, 2003
Location
Between Toronto & Montreal
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI Wagon, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon
I find it interesting that crank bolt torque for the 1Z/AHU is 66 ft-lbs + 90 degrees with threads & head flange oiled, while the ALH is 88 ft-lbs + 90 degrees with dry threads.?
I always thought that the 1Z/AHU bolt spec was with the threads oiled. Someone on myturbodiesel consulted ErWin (for the Audi version of the 1Z) and said it definitely says that bolt is not oiled...

Could someone please come up with a definitive version for this?

Yuri
 

RIP TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 16, 2000
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
TDI
'15 GSW SE 6MT...... '01 Golf GLS 5MT.... '96 Passat Variant....
I know what Bentley says... I also know that Bentley changes things from edition to edition...

Yuri
I have the Bentley B4 2-volume consumer edition, B4 21-volume dealer edition and A3 consumer edition and they all say the same thing. If you can provide evidence that the factory Audi (80/90/A4?) manual says otherwise, that would be very interesting.
 

RIP TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 16, 2000
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
TDI
'15 GSW SE 6MT...... '01 Golf GLS 5MT.... '96 Passat Variant....
I'm not sure how the two bolts compare in terms of diameter, length, pitch and grade (the heads are quite different), but if they are comparable, I wonder if the two torque specs result in a similar amount of bolt stretch since oiling the threads/flange allows the bolt to stretch more for a given angular rotation.
To answer my own question, bolt dimensions are different: 1Z/AHU - 14 X 1.5 X 47, ALH - 16 X 1.5 X 55
 

RIP TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 16, 2000
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
TDI
'15 GSW SE 6MT...... '01 Golf GLS 5MT.... '96 Passat Variant....
21 volume dealer edition? Talk to me.
Its actually 23 volumes, and although it sounds intriguing, as far as I've bothered to check, content is identical to the 2-volume paper version. Each volume is bound in vinyl and they are grouped into 6 separate group cases. I would say they are a nice addition to a B4 shrine room, but otherwise unnecessary.
 

RacerTodd

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Location
Kirkland, WA
TDI
2001 Golf TDI
I'm not sure how the two bolts compare in terms of diameter, length, pitch and grade (the heads are quite different), but if they are comparable, I wonder if the two torque specs result in a similar amount of bolt stretch since oiling the threads/flange allows the bolt to stretch more for a given angular rotation.
To answer my own question, bolt dimensions are different: 1Z/AHU - 14 X 1.5 X 47, ALH - 16 X 1.5 X 55
By definition, both bolts will provide virtually the same amount of stretch.

On TTY bolts with a torque value + rotation value, the initial torque spec is just to make sure the two parts are brought together snugly. The rotational value is what stretches the bolt to the correct length.

The thread pitch on both bolts is 1.5mm. That means 1 full turn would stretch the torqued bolt by 1.5mm.
90deg is 1/4 of a full turn.
So 1.5mm x .25 = .375mm of stretch beyond that provided by the initial torque value. That's about .014".

The ALH bolt is torqued to a higher initial value BUT the amount of rotation it take to go from 66 to 88 ft-lbs is minimal so for all intents and purposes - bolt bolts stretch the same amount.

The oil might might result in the 1Z/AHU bolt rotating a bit more when torqued to 66 ft-lb that if it was dry but the oil would not change the stretch that results from the 90deg rotation.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
The reason any engineer is going to increase the size of a bolt, the thickness of a metal, the hardness, the volume... whatever the engineering requirement... is because of either insufficiency of the part or an increase in stress. I think both is true when you compare the AHU and the ALH.

There are more AHU's that have the crank bolt come loose then ALH's, in my opinion. The two bolts might stretch the same, but the thicker ALH bolt will have a higher total clamping force, even at the same torque. It has been increased not only in dimension, but also loading.

Our feeling is that the AHU, particularly if it has a substantial increase in horsepower, should have the crank pinned or have one of those diamond impregnated washers installed. The extra friction of the washer holds the crank in place an allows the smaller bolt to work well enough.

As for oiling or not oiling, that is going to be an open debate. First, let's just say that stretch bolts are a convenience for the manufacturer. As long as the machine is within 180 degrees of 'the right torque', the bolts simply yields. So, with a TTY bolt, there is not as critical a point of exactness, as the bolt does what it's supposed to do and yields at a given torque, oiled or not oiled.

Oiling is friction reduction. The friction can easily be half of the total torque on a dry bolt. Use of Moly grease can actually reduce friction to the point you can over-torque bolts. The only place we use the moly is head studs, and then use the lower torque values.

Generally, we use oil on those bolts which run in engine oil...head bolts, crank bolts, rod bolts... to be plain, how are you going to get all the oil OUT??

With body mounting bolts, we work them dry, particularly those going into aluminum. Reducing the friction by oiling will increase the ability to strip the aluminum threads. It's easy enough to do that without oiling...
 

rickadoe

Vendor
Joined
Oct 8, 2004
Location
los banos, ca
TDI
jetta,99.5, blue
flange issue

Great thread. It has helped me out alot. I ran into a problem which I am having a hard time with locating a front flange. The kit that was ordered came with incorrect bolts and I did not realize it till it was too late.:mad:
Simple mistake gone way wrong! Cracked the aluminum flange! Anyone know where I can get part other than dealer? I search and only find ebay used stuff. OE part# is 038103153f. TIA for any help...
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
We have the PD flanges. They are recycled, but it's not an issue, as they are not a wear item. The bolts are 7 x 22mm. We usually install the seal into the flange before we send them out. Let me know if you need it.

The seal should have all the sealant removed from the block and the flange. A thin coat is all it needs. Be sure to seat the flange over the two alignment pins before putting in the screws. That may be a way to break the flange if not done correctly.
 

stev7975

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Location
Moscow, ID
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI 5 spd
Sorry to revive an old thread, but it is just too good not to keep alive.

Last year I was changing the front axle u-joints on my Dodge and I forgot to soak the axle nuts in pb blaster for a week prior, which is common practice. I broke three 1/2" breaker bars and one 3/4" breaker bar trying to bust loose the 2 5/16" nut on the axle. I was jumping up and down on a 4ft breaker bar and the damn thing wouldn't budge. I then drove to town and bought the DeWalt 20v hd impact wrench and it changed my life. Seriously, the thing is amazing and although it isn't cheap it is far cheaper than the equivalent air impact with the gargantuan air compressor you'd need to run it and very light/compact/has a light on it/all kinds of cool stuff. I have yet to find anything it won't loosen. ALH Crank bolt? Um, light snack my friends. I actually felt a little guilty after reading all the crank seal stories. I've loosened three of them now and it removed them effortlessly--without moving the crank at all. Awesome for lug nuts too. I just wish I could use it to re-torque, but I fear you'd shear off any bolt known to man. Well, any bolt on a tdi anyway. Just thought I would share and offer an alternative to the $200 single use specialty parts. The $400 impact is a far better buy in this poster's opinion. Note: I'm not an engineer and I suck at math and science so I can't explain why, but if you use an extension it won't take the nut off. Somehow the extension absorbs torque. Again, not sure why but it does. No extension=no hesitation.

Love this forum, I never stop learning from it. Thank all of you for contributing.
 

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
bought the DeWalt 20v hd impact wrench and it changed my life.
Keep reading excellent reviews of that very specific brand and model of impact wrench. Hmmmm... sure would be nice to loosen my lugnuts without breaking them free first with a breaker bar.

Probably too late for Santa, right?! :) :)
 
Top