good injectors balance check with vcds?

hi, maybe someone knows what are good numbers for injectors balance in vcds?

I believe spec is somewhere around +/- 2 between highest and lowest injector. However the balance field in vagcom measures more than just injector balance (cylinder condition, etc) so take it for what it is.

Are you having issues to warrent checking the injector balance?

What engine do you have, VE, PD, or other?

i see some random engine shake at idle
i have a VE37 pump car , new nozzles installed so thinking engine should idle perfectly.
IQ is at 4.5 - 5.2 so not so low, you just can see engine ratling

idle speed, is it normal or not good?
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group 13 looks good

The range is -1.88 to +1.88 so your numbers are pretty darn fine.

thanks, so no need to calibrate nozzles?

Audi A4 1.9tdi AVF 130bhp struggles to start and rough idle

Hi I'm having a similar problem with my Audi of 130.

Can't attach picture but when at idle measuring block 013 reads as follows:

-1.93. -1.69. 2.99. 0.42

Does this look right and if not what could be the cause ? Faulty injector or injector wiring loom (which has never been changed) ?

Any advice would be appreciated.

No that doesn't look good.......how many miles on the injectors and bodies?
On the vw's it + or - 2.
I don't believe Audi would be much different.
Even though 1,2 are in limits , I personally consider them high, #4 is where I would normally see my injectors, #3 is way off.

Again there is something going on, not necessarily it's the injectors, probably it is but there could be other factors. Just for $hits and grins I would do a compression test just to rule out the cylinders........again that's me, at least you know where you stand with the cylinders then

You can also try running a can of diesel purge by itself. It could help your numbers.

Still amazes me that my car at 262k miles on original injectors the balance is almost perfect.


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AnotherPerson said:

You can also try running a can of diesel purge by itself. It could help your numbers.

Still amazes me that my car at 262k miles on original injectors the balance is almost perfect.


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alternatively all four could be wearing "evenly"

greenskeeper said:

alternatively all four could be wearing "evenly"

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Looks like Thursday is the day they will be done. I'll post photos on a thread if they look strange.


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greenskeeper said:

alternatively all four could be wearing "evenly"

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BINGO!

That's what this deviation is all about- compensating for various imbalances. Injectors and nozzles aren't the only things affecting the balancing act (cylinder compression differences being a big contributor). And, I believe that it's possible that a speed sensor issue could cause a variation as well: the "ring?"

Veedubmad said:

Hi I'm having a similar problem with my Audi of 130.
Can't attach picture but when at idle measuring block 013 reads as follows:
-1.93. -1.69. 2.99. 0.42
Does this look right and if not what could be the cause ? Faulty injector or injector wiring loom (which has never been changed) ?
Any advice would be appreciated.

Click to expand...

What was the solution eventually?

^^that audi poster never posted his engine type.
It could be a PD engine. On these, besides the obvious injector problems, worn out cams can disturb the injector balance numbers

Carlos,

Veedubmad's injector quantities have to be a PD, as those are the kind of deviation numbers we see with PD's. When the number 2.99+ or 3.01- comes up, you are usually looking for new injectors. Veedubmad might get lucky and try Liqui-Moly Purge, which isn't very likely to work, or replace the worst injector. Some will swap two deviating injectors to be sure it's not the cylinder or bad cam, as we pioneered many years ago.

I would caution, there is a burr that is caused by the PD injector body leaning against the aluminum cylinder bore. The burr must be removed before reinstalling the injector or you will cut the seals. Sometimes you can reinstall the seals without replacing, but if you cut it, it's done for. If a any of the lower black seals are cut, fuel will leak back to the fuel return galley and power will be severely diminished. You will always have to replace the TTY hold down bolt.

The rest of this conversation has to do with the 2-Stage rotary pump injectors...

It's probably been more than 10 years ago, we discovered 'not all injectors are created equal'. By using the VCDS/ engine module/ measuring blocks/ block 13 (idle balance) and block 15 (liter per hour fuel usage), we have been able to determine if new injectors are working 1) well with one another and 2) if the fueling usage is close to spec. However, on nozzles which have many miles and much wear, especially ones that the pop pressures have diminished, block 13 is not going to give usable information on balance.

For example, we often find that the pilot pop has diminished from the 220 bar (3250psi) pop pressure, to usually around 170 bar, or 725 psi loss. That's about a 20% loss in pressure. Usually, NoP2, the main stage pressure, which should be at or near 300bar (4350psi), is also reduced. The point is that the injectors are intended to operate at an optimum pressure, which has a bell curve for best performance, I would say, within 5% of the intended pressure, they will then be able to be rated for balance. If they are not popping at the correct pressure, they will most likely show less deviation, unless an injector nozzle is very bad.

Although we've seen a few exceptions for people that use Tier 1 diesel fuels, or regularly run certain diesel additives, it's not all that easy to keep injectors going for 250k. If the original injectors can be shown to pop cleanly through all 5 holes equally and can be shimmed to meet spec, then you may be able to use the VCDS numbers to qualify the injectors. But truthfully, the work 'checking old injectors', does not pay well when we spend hours attempting to get a set of 4 old nozzles to cooperate. It usually doesn't work. As I have said before,"What will you pay me for 3/4 of a working set?" Answer: Not much...

So also, what do the OP's injector numbers mean? Not much...

wersuss said:

i see some random engine shake at idle

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you didnt post your idle speed. (warm).
after this check #1 mechanical timing, after verifying check pump timing.


the audi poster, veedub--, the purge is usually a good idea, oh one a year a full bottle to a full tank. in our older models we could bottle feed 1full can straight, for maintenance, full flush concentrate. the purge is mainly going to get small(er) improvements here, --*mainly*-.
new nozzles seem in order, idk if a professional can clean up or get old nozzles to work right again. in the future take better care of fuel system, putting additive in each fuel tank fill up, and other basic maintenance, such as using purge from time to time, and #1 change your fuel filter!! <-#2 here, use a good,quality filter.(the same, and dont forget your air filter!)

Frank06 thank you for the great insight.

I was speaking from experience on the effect of a worn cam on group 13.
While my flat cam didint produce "+/- 2.99" values, it pushed two cylinders to more than "1.00" .

Just the cam swap itself resulted in values less than "+/-0.10" across the 4 injectors.
My car had around 70k miles at the time, so the injectors werent that worn out.

Franko6 said:

.............snip..................
It's probably been more than 10 years ago, we discovered 'not all injectors are created equal'. By using the VCDS/ engine module/ measuring blocks/ block 13 (idle balance) and block 15 (liter per hour fuel usage), we have been able to determine if new injectors are working 1) well with one another and 2) if the fueling usage is close to spec. However, on nozzles which have many miles and much wear, especially ones that the pop pressures have diminished, block 13 is not going to give usable information on balance. .............snip....................

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Frank, other than Group 013, how do I use my VCDS to analyze the condition of my VE injectors? Car only has 180k mi. and gets 37 mpg (freeway or combined). I've ruled out much of the "dumb stuff".

Frank, other than Group 013, how do I use my VCDS to analyze the condition of my VE injectors? Car only has 180k mi. and gets 37 mpg (freeway or combined). I've ruled out much of the "dumb stuff".

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I'm interested too. 355K miles on original injectors.

OPs 4th post shows the IQ.
the 5th post, block 13.
other than some other VCDS diagnostic tools.
send your injectors to a professional shop. a pop tester can help. you can build your own, as long as your careful when using it.

Frank mentioned some specifics in evaluating the things for the PD. I'm lazy, rather diddle with the VCDS than pull injectors, but that may not even be possible. Never have been impressed by anything the VCDS does, other than a few adaptations.

Franko6 said:

I would caution, there is a burr that is caused by the PD injector body leaning against the aluminum cylinder bore. The burr must be removed before reinstalling the injector or you will cut the seals.

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Frank, how do you go about removing these burrs?


.

I see enough questions to do a thesis...

Bob and 03TDI communter...

The first thing I can say is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." But with BobinOhio, the 37mpg is lousy fuel economy. Block 13 may show deviation between injectors... maybe not... but block 15, liter per hr usage, will show how much fuel you engine is burning. An idle fuel usage number for an ALH should be around .4 lph, and at 2,000rpm, it should be around 2.2, but can be as low as 1.8lph. The problem remains, if you don't have injectors popping at an optimal pressure, it's harder to determine which is bad or if the set is bad.

Phaser: Whenever we remove a PD injector, we remove the burr caused by the injector leaning against the injector bore. The bolt and hold down block push the injector toward the opposite side of the injector bore, causing the injector body to vibrate against the aluminum, which often will cause a burr to form. A piece of 180 grit emery cloth will work. If you are particular, put a paper towel into the hole ahead of the damage and work the paper side to side. It doesn't take long. We have a 1" x 1" 240 grit flapper wheel made by an Italian company, Bibelle, we use on a die grinder. It polishes the hole quick and easy.

The other obvious sign that VE injectors are leaking is a slow startup and lots of white smoke from a cold start. At that point, we usually find they are worn and should be replaced. That is the only real cure for old and worn out injectors.

Franko6 said:

<<<<<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the 37mpg is lousy fuel economy. Block 13 may show deviation between injectors... maybe not... but block 15, liter per hr usage, will show how much fuel you engine is burning. An idle fuel usage number for an ALH should be around .4 lph, and at 2,000rpm, it should be around 2.2, but can be as low as 1.8lph. The problem remains, if you don't have injectors popping at an optimal pressure, it's harder to determine which is bad or if the set is bad.<<<<<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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Now that's helpful! Thank You Frank.
My starts are good, but I get white smoke, intermittent, like half the time, irrespective of ambient or engine temperature.

Hello, on my 2004 jetta PD BEW, i have codes P0201 and 301. The car sat in the winter for 2 months. Ran rough at startup, then i reved and the new codes popped up. I have around 300km on the timing belt and it is loose to wiggle but looks good. (Yes over due, and plan on doing it). Anyway, when i watch in vcds the #1 cylinder values climb and climb over 10 seconds to what appears to a readout of "+2.99" . It may dip to 2.60, but back up to 2.99. It stumbles and wont run right.
My question is, does anyone feel that poor timing (currently 4.9 deviation at idle, 7 reving) be causing the "electrical error" on #1 injector? My thoughts are potentially a default in the programming that says "if you see bad timing. Potentially loose belt, throw code on#1, and limp mode to be safe so a dealer can investigate" . My other train of thought is, 2.99 is generic max (at work we have temperature sensors that "fail high max". My dad used to always say fix one thing at a time, so i dont want to replace injection loom+injector, and timining belt kid all at once.
Thank you for the help and comments if some of you have seen that value before being generated from poor timing.

It makes no sense to troubleshoot your problems until it gets a new belt kit correctly installed.
If the belt is loose to the touch it may have already slipped time...
It's already at double the service interval and owes you nothing.

Valid thought, although my car has 440,000km with a rough body, so i was testing the waters to gauge how much to spend or not spend on it. A wasted $350 on a belt kit if this points at compression or cam wear for example.

I am also a "need to know and understand" person, and i value and continuously am blown away with the detailed knowledge of people on here. I was hoping to have someone echo "i had my belt super loose/set it up wrong and it didnt throw #1 cylinder code" . Then i can conclude i have 2 separate problems. Maybe water from sitting went through the injector and wrecked it. I guess it would help if i knew what the values in 01, 13 mean.

"AnotherPerson" wrote to try a "diesel purge" , what is that?
I also read somewhere about mini screens at each injector. Possibly that could be issue?