The stalling is getting a bit embarrassing

drexer13 said:

Well I was able to get the crank sensor in tonight but it didn't solve the problem. The car is getting progressively worse, now it stalls every time I come to a stop.

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Have you replaced the camshaft position sensor?

A bad camshaft position sensor will cause engine stall too, just like you described.

Been there, done that.

As a side note, I never use after market parts for this, always genuine VW.



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Nero Morg said:

Next time as you're coming up to a stop, bump it into neutral, to eliminate the transmission as the issue.

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I tried bumping the car into neutral today before I came to a stop and it still died. So I guess that rules out the transmission.

phaser said:

Have you replaced the camshaft position sensor?
A bad camshaft position sensor will cause engine stall too, just like you described.
.

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I did not replace the cam sensor but I did order one today. Thanks.
On a side note all of the parts I have ordered are oem parts.
I'm grateful for everyones willingness to contribute here. At this point I'm leaning toward it being a fuel delivery problem. I have most of the day tomorrow to study the Bentley manual and run some tests. I'll post again when I have some news.

drexer13 said:

On a side note all of the parts I have ordered are oem parts.

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Once you exhaust every single option, and if you still haven't figured out the source of the issue, rule out the crankshaft position sensor (and camshaft sensor if you end up replacing that, too) with a Genuine, over the counter part.

The logic you're using is the same reason it took us months to figure out the problem. We knew the solution, just refused to believe it. That's because the sensor in there was an autozone type aftermarket and I said, oh no, it has to be OEM or else it won't work and either got it from FCP Euro or Autohaus. It didn't work, but even FCP Euro explains:

FCP has completed decades of research and we are very stringent with the term “OEM”, rest assured that every product that we list as OEM will be of equal quality to that of OE or Genuine parts we sell.

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which tells you that there is a distinction between genuine parts and OEM suppliers, however small or meaningless it usually is...in this case, it mattered. It also indicates they do sell OE parts, but in this case the crankshaft sensor is not an option (they only list two OEM suppliers for your application).

I'm not a guy who regularly argues for OE only. In fact, this is literally the only part I argue must be OE only and it comes from that experience of running into this unique issue with my dad's bug and then two more after that which we immediately went to the OE sensor and resolve their issues, too. Believe me, it's painful because if I remember correctly the sensor was about $100 bucks and that was with our shop's discount! The problem is that you'll be frustrated if it doesn't resolve the problem but if you don't use OE then you can't 100% rule it out

The facts are it's stalling when in a motoring condition. Meaning zero throttle pedal and slowing to a stop. I wouldn't jump to cam/crank sensors right away. I would lean towards timing is off or fuel restriction. You changed the fuel filter right? Pull the sending unit out of the tank and see if the sending unit is full of junk.

Nero Morg said:

The facts are it's stalling when in a motoring condition. Meaning zero throttle pedal and slowing to a stop. I wouldn't jump to cam/crank sensors right away. I would lean towards timing is off or fuel restriction. You changed the fuel filter right? Pull the sending unit out of the tank and see if the sending unit is full of junk.

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That's a tell-tale sign of a faulty crankshaft position sensor, but regardless none of us told him to do that he determined to replace it preemptively in his third post. The fact remains now that he's replaced it with an OEM aftermarket, that is a known problem with European vehicles (VW and BMW both experience this issue of OEM crankshaft sensors causing stalling and no-starts) and he needs to replace it with an OE part. It is worth pointing out that at least three independent members here have posted same problem, same solution.

Again, the issue is he must use an OE part, not an OEM part, in order to effectively rule the part out. It may not be related to his problem, his old sensor may have been fine, I didn't tell him to replace it, but now that he has replaced it with an OEM sensor he can no longer guarantee that it's not the OEM sensor. I don't advocate shotgunning parts at a problem, but if someone chooses to do that they are exercising frustration not to use an OE part when it's mission critical.

Okay guys I feel like i need to apologise for not being concise with my wording. The crank sensor I put in is a genuine vw Audi part. It even says vw on the side and has the Audi rings. When I said oem I ment original equipment ie what came in the car. That being said, even if it was not, logic tells me it is probably not the issue. I understand that aftermarket crank sensors can cause issues, but in my experience even the cheapest Chinese sensor will work for a little while or not work at all. When I replaced the sensor there was literally no change, it started the same ran the same and died the same. The part I pulled out was also a factory part. I figure it was probably the original so at 215000 miles it wasn't long for this life even if it was still good. So like I said earlier it's cheap maintenance.
It would have been nice if it had fixed the issue, but it didn't so I move on to the next thing.

Nero Morg said:

The facts are it's stalling when in a motoring condition. Meaning zero throttle pedal and slowing to a stop. I wouldn't jump to cam/crank sensors right away. I would lean towards timing is off or fuel restriction. You changed the fuel filter right? Pull the sending unit out of the tank and see if the sending unit is full of junk.

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It does feel like it is running out of gas. The fuel filter was the first thing on my list but it's been a bit of pain getting one. I checked around and of course no one in my area including the nearest dealership had one. That's why I placed the order in the first place. When it finally came I went to replace it and found the filter in the car doesn't have a check valve. So now I'm waiting for a check valve. In the meantime I'll recheck the timing and pull the lift pump to check for a blockage.

You mentioned that the symptoms got worse after you put in the sensor. Have you swapped it back to the original to determine whether the new sensor made it worse? It's possible the sensor came to you faulty.

It's also entirely possible the sensor you were sent was a counterfeit. Have you compared the old sensor to the new one side by side? Would you mind posting a picture of them side by side? I don't intend to insult your knowledge, but FCP Euro doesn't list an OE option on their website for this part: https://www.fcpeuro.com/Volkswagen-parts/Jetta/?utf8=✓&year=2004&m=958&e=982&keywords=crank+sensor

If you go to autozone, you can find all sorts of aftermarket options for your vehicle:
https://www.autozone.com/engine-management/crankshaft-position-sensor/volkswagen/jetta/2004

Most of them are in the range you may have paid for yours (was it around $30?). If you keep digging, though, you'll find Bosch listed as OE for about $100:
https://www.autozone.com/engine-man...sch-crankshaft-position-sensor/544255_0_30433
(this is about the price I remember it being from the dealership).

I'm not advocating shopping at autozone but the part number lets you dig some more...

Here is the "same" part for less than half:
https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-Origin...006K8ZHEA/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

and if you click on the warehouse deals you can "steal" it for $25 bucks! That's less than the OEM part listed on FCP Euro's site. Is it a deal, though?

Logos, etc. unfortunately don't indicate the genuine-ness of a part.
If I showed you a Chinese character and asked you to stamp it on a 100 widgets it wouldn't matter to you whether that character translated to, "Genuine VW" part or not--you'd just stamp it out on 100 widgets as paid to do.

The reasonable conclusion is that these can't realistically all be genuine parts...certainly not with a price ranging anywhere from 25 to 100 dollars but I bet they'd all have the requisite logos to demonstrate their authenticity. If you read some of the reviews you'll note some red flags (like cable length differing, shape/color differences, etc.)

These parts are made in countries with lax regulations and very little cultural commitment to following more developed nations' IP laws. Stamping anything and everything that will indicate genuine quality is standard operating procedure and even if the employees cared they were stamping nonsense and illegal claims on the widgets, they can't read or write the language anyway and don't even know what they're doing.

Anyway, my advice is coming across like preaching now or whatever instead of being helpful. That's why I took the time to do all that linking to demonstrate that I am genuinely taking time to research what I'm posting here so you know I'm not just armchair quarterbacking. But I know what I sound like at this point and this will be the last post in regards to using an OE crank sensor from across the desk of a dealership LOL

I really do appreciate all the research you did, and I may infact end up replacing the sensor again with one I pick up at a dealership. The issue with that is I don't have competent dealership near me. The closest one is about 30 miles away and I've gone the rounds with them more than once. When I had my a4 the car just stopped running one day. After a day of diagnosing I figured it was probably the crank sensor so I picked one up from said dealership at the tune of 120 bucks. It didn't fix the problem so I ruled it out. Later I came back to the same conclusion but this time bought one from eBay for under 3 bucks. Threw it in and the car fired right up. I didn't trust the Chinese sensor for long term so I bought another one from the same dealership. It worked for about 20 miles and quit on me again. I kept the eBay sensor in the car for a backup and when I put It back in (on the side of the interstate) the car fired up again. The dealer didn't give me a refund or even an exchange for either sensor. A few years later I bought new plugs from them for my wife's q7. When I went to put them in I found that 4 of them had been used and then put back in the box. Again no refund no exchange. I'm not saying that all dealerships suck and sell crap parts but mine does. I would love to be able to stroll into a dealership buy the part and have confidence that it's good. But unfortunately to be able to do that I first have to drive 300 miles one way to a dealer I can trust. It may in fact come to that, and if the FCP sensor ends up being the problem I'll let you know and buy you a beer. Thanks again for all the research you have done.

I'm fairly certain that my '98 beetle's ECU has a different part number from your 2004 Jetta's ECU, but check if this 2002's might work: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=495792

That's $40 bucks for a stock tune. When/if you get a Malone tune, at least on mine, the entire unit has to be sent in to the shop for the first time to solder sockets for replaceable chips. We can't flash with a loader. So if you have plans to tune that unit, you might benefit from having a spare around. PM that guy and ask him for the part number of his ECU and see if it matches yours. That will eliminate the tune as an issue.

It doesn't seem to me like it would be the tune since the car was fine for however long and then started exhibiting the issues, which indicates a failed part to me (whether sensors, transmission, or fuel delivery, etc.), but it might be worth effectively ruling those out.

After you cleared your transmission codes, have they come back? I don't know anything about automatic transmissions on our cars. Are the people who know how the auto trans work sure that putting it in neutral rules it out as a contributor or source of this problem?

Tonight after changing the fuel filter I pulled the valve cover again. This time I pulled the injector rocker so I could get a good look at the cam. Turns out two of the lobes are worn down pretty far. So now I'm cam shopping again. I pulled the valve cover once before but didn't pull the rocker. I figured the cam only had 20,000 miles and the valve lobes I could see still looked new.

Sounds like you may have found the problem. Unlike a brake rotor or alternator brush, a cam should show virtually 0 wear. Same with crank, bearings.

When you changed the fuel filter, was it full or empty?

JB05 said:

When you changed the fuel filter, was it full or empty?

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It was full. I also changed the lines and they were full as well.

BobnOH said:

Sounds like you may have found the problem. Unlike a brake rotor or alternator brush, a cam should show virtually 0 wear. Same with crank, bearings.

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I agree. I should have known, it's always the cam on these cars.

I don't have a TDI of that era and am not aware of the cam issues (I know they exist, but not aware of how they present), so it's difficult for me to understand how cam wear would present in this manner (progressively getting worse...daily--including immediately worseing after installation of aftermarket parts).

drexer13 said:

Well I was able to get the crank sensor in tonight but it didn't solve the problem. The car is getting progressively worse, now it stalls every time I come to a stop.

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This implies it wasn't stalling at every stop before the aftermarket crank sensor was installed.

Not saying it's something other than the cam, like I said I don't know about cam wear and how it presents on your era TDI, but I don't understand the theory. Is it that the cam wear was marginal and repeatedly cranking the engine has finally done it in?

I don't remember you stating how long this issue has presented. Has it been a long time and you're just now fed up with it because it's gotten to the point of can't ignore? Or did it just start up out of nowhere a short time ago?

Couple suggestions.

I would take a close look at this thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=328868

Secondly, since you have VCDS, start the car and let it warm up a bit. Watch measured value block 12 field 1, wait until the field is all 1s indicating the after glow of the glow plugs have shut off.

Back out of measured values, go to basic settings. Enter the number 03, click "Go!"

The engine RPMs will come up and the EGR will be cycled on and off. I would be curious to see what the MAF values are.

EDIT: Just realized the OP said the EGR was deleted, but then again, depending on HOW it was deleting, issues could still arise...

Matt-98AHU said:

..............snip.............. Just realized the OP said the EGR was deleted, but then again, depending on HOW it was deleting, issues could still arise...

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Good point, we see EGR delete all the time, but there are 3 possibles.
Dialed back with VCDS
Tuned (this may be the same as dialed out IDK)
Removed and blocked (should be tuned for this)

I finally got the car fixed last night. I wanted to tell everyone one more time how much I appreciate your help with everything. Turns out there were some pretty deep flat spots on the injector rocker lobes of the cam. So the rockers just weren't be moved enough to keep the car running at low rpm. I replaced the cam, lifters and bearings. Now the car runs like a top. Thanks again.

Glad you got it running again, now we have a close to this adventure. Happy trails.