Disposal of buy-backs

rotarykid

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turbobrick240

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penny wise, and pound foolish. They'll go through the motions of repentance, but I doubt much has really changed at VW.
 

Lightflyer1

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Probably not. The reason for the considerable drop was due to the addition of SCR technology in the 2012 Passat.
The Passat can't account for that by itself, it was only one model and not the most popular. None of the others got SCR until 2015 IIRC.
 

drsven

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The Passat can't account for that by itself, it was only one model and not the most popular. None of the others got SCR until 2015 IIRC.

My comment based on the attached article:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...al/vw-diesel-emissions-scandal-explained.html


Look at the sample data from both vehicles:

2011 Jetta (Non-SCR)

2012 Passat (SCR)


My thoughts are, if VW hadn't tried to pass off non-SCR equipped vehicles as "clean" they probably could have avoided this whole mess.
 
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Lightflyer1

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Once CARB found out I would imagine it was a done deal to go after them. No way they would let that ride, even at Passat levels.
 

Zawurah

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It was up to 40 times under certain conditions that only existed a small % of the time, like under load while going up a mountian at speed, or accelerating...

Far lower most of the time!
Yes, but remember they were sold as having emission levels way below the legal limit.

So that 40x, is actually much higher when compared to the advertised pollution levels.

Look at the original study that broke the scandal open, and compare the highway pollution level to the advertised amount. Still off the charts.
 

rotarykid

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Yes, but remember they were sold as having emission levels way below the legal limit.
So that 40x, is actually much higher when compared to the advertised pollution levels.
Look at the original study that broke the scandal open, and compare the highway pollution level to the advertised amount. Still off the charts.

I really wish people who quote this BS of the exceeding limits by up to 40 times would give some honesty to those claims! #!!##!! Facts that seem to always be left out are that for most normal driving conditions their actual emissions were with in spec or just above spec. .....that bs 40x number only occurred under extreme load conditions! Continuing to quote that lie when under the actual real world driving conditions they do not exceed limits by any amount or by an amount so low as to be irrelevant to actual pollution in any given region. .......
 

tadawson

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No, *UP TO* 15 or 40 . . . . 1.0000000000000000000000000000000001 times the limit also fits that definition . . . .
 

Zawurah

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Do I need to dig up the report that showed highway emission levels?

Why do people keep defending and downplaying this crime?

Is VW posting on here? It would be foolish for the not to.
 

turbobrick240

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Because this is a tdi forum and people here like their cars. It's hard for a lot of people to admit that the company that produced their beloved car lied and cheated criminally. Thus all of the conspiracy theories.
 

GoFaster

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I really wish people who quote this BS of the exceeding limits by up to 40 times would give some honesty to those claims! #!!##!! Facts that seem to always be left out are that for most normal driving conditions their actual emissions were with in spec or just above spec. .....that bs 40x number only occurred under extreme load conditions! Continuing to quote that lie when under the actual real world driving conditions they do not exceed limits by any amount or by an amount so low as to be irrelevant to actual pollution in any given region. .......
That isn't true.

The Gen 1 cars when driven routinely by normal people in normal driving, emit ~ 15 times the amount of NOx allowed. Under some conditions it was up to 40 times above. There are virtually no circumstances encountered in normal driving in which these cars actually are within specifications for NOx emissions when averaged over full trips of normal driving.

Virtually the only circumstance in which NOx emissions are within limits on those cars is if your trip very closely matches one of the prescribed EPA test cycles and only if you do the test cycle once ... if you drive longer than the length of the EPA test cycle then it switches out of compliance mode. One of the ways CARB busted VW was simply by repeating the FTP75 test cycle on the dyno without stopping the vehicle. Passed on the first run-through ... then emissions skyrocketed. (On a normal car, emissions will be the same or lower on the second run-through on account of the catalyst already being warmed up.)

The Gen 2 (SCR equipped as an "add-on") did better but still well out of compliance. Remember, the Gen 2 manual transmission cars are the ones that VW gave up on. They're buying them all back and squishing them because they could not achieve the agreed-upon reductions in NOx emissions (which were still substantially higher than the original NOx emission limits).

Gen 3 did better yet, those are the first ones in which the emission control system is designed in rather than added on, and those are the only ones in which the emissions recall work actually achieves compliant emissions. But they weren't compliant in original form.

Remember, much of the reason CARB and EPA came down so hard on VW was the nature of how VW was attempting to cover up the situation. "it wasn't the crime, it was the cover-up"

EPA and CARB would have been well within rights to rigorously enforce the original emission limits on these cars, not agreeing to less-stringent limits that still represented a big reduction from original condition ... they could have just told VW "achieve full compliance, or buy them all back".

You can argue about the appropriateness of the emission limits all you want, I won't even disagree that current emission standards are possibly more stringent than what makes sense, but once they're set, the law is what it is. Can't comply? then don't sell the product.
 

compu_85

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... None :S
Also, even after the software changes to turn the hardware on, aren't the Gen1 cars, and the 2012 Gen2 cars still over the original limits? Just not as bad.
 

Lightflyer1

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Do I need to dig up the report that showed highway emission levels?

Why do people keep defending and downplaying this crime?

Is VW posting on here? It would be foolish for the not to.
Not downplaying at all. They did the crime and are paying the punishment for it. I can't find the 2015 emissions levels they were supposed to meet but even at 15 to 40 times that level I think they still weren't such a big deal when compared to other things out there contributing to this. Lying and cheating is a big deal and they are paying the price.
 

joshhol

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Definitely have to chime in on this thread here. Even one of the prncipal scientists from West Virginia University that BUSTED VW for their cheat says that the 40 times number that is thrown about is taken out of context and the issue is magnitude!
https://www.motortrend.com/news/dieselgate-investigator-speaks-out-on-volkswagen-emissions/
“People should understand the idea of absolute magnitude, whether it's 40 times or 25 times or 15 times, the actual magnitude is lost. Even if it exceeded the regulatory maximum by 40 times, it still is low levels of emissions. Because the standard itself is so low, 40 times is not a huge number. The approach that was used to circumvent the emissions testing procedure is the topic of discussion.”
 

flargabarg

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The process has to be getting close to done, as it's been weeks since I have seen a truckload of TDIs come in to the salvage yard across from my work. I looked up my old one, and they did the modification in March but have not yet put it up for sale. At this point I figure they are just going to trickle the remaining ones out until the yards are empty.
 

Lightflyer1

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Definitely have to chime in on this thread here. Even one of the prncipal scientists from West Virginia University that BUSTED VW for their cheat says that the 40 times number that is thrown about is taken out of context and the issue is magnitude!
https://www.motortrend.com/news/dieselgate-investigator-speaks-out-on-volkswagen-emissions/
“People should understand the idea of absolute magnitude, whether it's 40 times or 25 times or 15 times, the actual magnitude is lost. Even if it exceeded the regulatory maximum by 40 times, it still is low levels of emissions. Because the standard itself is so low, 40 times is not a huge number. The approach that was used to circumvent the emissions testing procedure is the topic of discussion.”
Thanks for that article link!
 

Mythdoc

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Thanks for that article link!


+1

We do now know, however,why VW cheated. He speculates it in fact: cutting down warranty repairs and associated costs due to stress on the emissions control systems from being in full compliance.
 

kjclow

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The approach that was used to circumvent the emissions testing procedure is the topic of discussion.”
This statement is the scandal and the reason VW was forced into the buyback. It's not that the cars polluted at x over the regulations, but that they continued to lie what they did until dragged kicking and screaming into court.
 

MichaelB

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This statement is the scandal and the reason VW was forced into the buyback. It's not that the cars polluted at x over the regulations, but that they continued to lie what they did until dragged kicking and screaming into court.
Remember all the BS about being green that they promoted.......Racing in the Green, the government gave us a green car tax credit because of the lies. VW's marketing department just lied and lied and lied. Car and Diver award Green Car of the year that is why they were punished.
https://greencarjournal.com/features/vw-audi-return-green-car-awards/
 
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Lightflyer1

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+1

We do now know, however,why VW cheated. He speculates it in fact: cutting down warranty repairs and associated costs due to stress on the emissions control systems from being in full compliance.
We don't know. That person is one of the people who discovered the "cheat" not a VW employee. He can only guess why they did it, not speak from fact. His suggestion makes logical sense, but that doesn't necessarily mean that is why VW did it. Only VW can speak to why they actually did it.
 

turbocharged798

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Remember all the BS about being green that they promoted.......Racing in the Green, the government gave us a green car tax credit because of the lies. VW's marketing department just lied and lied and lied. Car and Diver award Green Car of the year that is why they were punished.
Do you really think the car isn't green anymore because it emits more NOx than regulation? An F350 or Suburban is a rolling abomination compared to a CR TDI. To say the car isn't green is being ridiculous.

I do agree the whole green diesel campaign did not help their case though.
 
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MichaelB

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An F350 or Suburban is a rolling abomination compared to a CR TDI. To say the car isn't green is being ridiculous.
I do agree the whole green diesel campaign did not help their case though.
Maybe greener than an F350 or suburban but somehow those vehicles passed the EPA regs. VW lied and very regularly promoted how the VW TDI was the greenest car on the planet. Many people bought them with that train of thought. I myself didn't care how green it was I just wanted a diesel-powered car with better fuel economy than a competing gasser. Clean diesel was just a bonus (tax credit).None the less what else has VW lied to you about? Can you trust anything they say or have said?
 
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Mythdoc

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turbocharged798

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Maybe greener than an F350 or suburban but somehow those vehicles passed the EPA regs. VW lied and very regularly promoted how the VW TDI was the greenest car on the planet. Many people bought them with that train of thought. I myself didn't care how green it was I just wanted a diesel-powered car with better fuel economy than a competing gasser. Clean diesel was just a bonus (tax credit).None the less what else has VW lied to you about? Can you trust anything they say or have said?
So you are more concerned about meeting EPA regs that what is better for the environment? That's a pretty backwards way of thinking. It still is a green car, CO, VOCs and HCs are almost nothing compared to gassers.

I suppose the government is always right and does the right thing, oh wait......
 

kjclow

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Maybe greener than an F350 or suburban but somehow those vehicles passed the EPA regs. VW lied and very regularly promoted how the VW TDI was the greenest car on the planet. Many people bought them with that train of thought. I myself didn't care how green it was I just wanted a diesel-powered car with better fuel economy than a competing gasser. Clean diesel was just a bonus (tax credit).None the less what else has VW lied to you about? Can you trust anything they say or have said?
VW promoted a "Clean Diesel" and a greener car. They never promoted it as being the greenest car on the planet. Some of those comments were propagated on this site comparing cradle to grave calculations.
 

MichaelB

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Well, you guys can see it your way and justify what VW did as ok. None the less VW installed an illegal device to lie to the world..... They got caught and busted. Nuff said.
Just more corporate greed. We all like that eh?
 

Lightflyer1

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No one is trying to justify what VW did. It is just that the result of what they did is not of the magnitude of what some are making it out to be as far as emissions goes. The actual emissions part of this whole thing is minuscule when you compare it to many other sources out there. The cars still are one of the cleanest out there even though they violate the emissions regs for this one thing. Yes they did something wrong and lied through their teeth about it. They were caught and punished.
 

MichaelB

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The cars still are one of the cleanest out there even though they violate the emissions regs for this one thing.
And the members of this forum who come here for advice on how to delete their emissions systems violate all the rest. They seem to get a friendly welcome and all the info they need to accomplice the task, they are just as guilty as VW. So many members here seem to feel that emission standards are of no importance no matter how little or large. Many have a justification when breaking the law when it suits them. Have a nice day with clean fresh air! Oh poor mistreated VW.
 
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Mythdoc

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In many states it is not illegal for a purchaser to delete the emissions system. In some it is. Even if it were illegal nationwide, MichaelB, it would be unconvincing to me to try to locate an individual owner on a “continuum of wrongdoing” alongside a corporation that shipped somewhere approaching 750,000 vehicles to a market in violation of that country’s sovereign laws.

This is why the concept of government regulation exists, and is in my opinion more helpful than harmful. Those 750,000 vehicles releasing more than allowed is going to be a lot more pollution than the 500? or so deletes driving around the country.

I can live with the guy deleting his system (again, legal in my state), though I disagree with it personally. What I cannot do is accept a corporation systematically jiggering with their technology to BOTH violate our clean air laws AND leave me with the warranty repair bill. One shows contempt for the country, the second shows contempt for me, their customer.

We deserve the restitution, buybacks, and warranties we got.
 
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