NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

Plus 3 Golfer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Location
ARIZONA
TDI
Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
I wonder what the difference really is between the diesel fuel sold in canada and the states - its hard to believe that canadian fuel has more lubricity ....maybe more cetane but the higher cetane you have doesnt mean more lubricity...unless am wrong
Canadian Fuel is <460. I think Bosch specs are <520. From what I heard there have been very few Canadian HPFP Failures.
Here's a link to read.
Q
I believe several important points on lubricity can be seen on this table. First, the max HFFR wear scar is 679 microns from the samples tested for lubricity. So, we know that at least one US sample had a wear scar that according to Bosch would cause catastrophic failure of the HPFP. In addition, note that the conclusion drawn is that if the average wear scar meets standard that everything is okay with respect to lubricity. Lastly, note the poor repeatability and reproducibility of the wear scar test.

So, VW is likely correct, it's poor fuel quality causing the HPFP failures.;)
S
 
Last edited:

Trooper81

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2001
Location
Ontario Canada
TDI
2000 New Beetle, 2011 Touareg TDI
For those that haven't seen this pic before this demonstrates the corrolation between lubricity and wear, it also indicates what Bosch Believes is a safe Wear scar. With the proper wear scar Bosch has indicated this pump has a lifetime exceeding 450,000 km.
 

Second Turbo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2002
Location
Kansas, USA
TDI
2003 ALH Wagon, 373K, 2nd 01M
How to read an eBay listing, lesson 31 of 471.

dweisel: > ... used hfpfs on eBay right now. I loved the description. "Looks fine on the outside" "NO RETURNS" LOL. Only $455.00.

When you see stuff like that, you are either dealing with an idiot eBay seller, or a con who wants only idiot eBay buyers, or both.

What matters on items like this is the standard Item Condition elected by the seller. For auto parts, if it isn't "For parts or not working", then the seller is on the hook if it's toast. The buyer can file a SNAD (Substantially Not As Described), and will usually prevail.

The Returns Not Accepted is essentially meaningless (again; dumb seller, or wants only dumb buyers). The buyer has full eBay and/or PayPal buyer protection whether the seller "accepts" returns or not. What it really means is that if the dispute is resolved in favor of the buyer, and the seller wants it back, the buyer should decline to to pre-pay return shipping.

But buying a used CR HPFP, from anywhere. Yep. Crapshoot, even if the buyer does prevail in the annoyance that develops (and manages to avoid wrecking their fuel system whilst testing).
 

Toronto

Active member
Joined
Jan 15, 2012
Location
Toronto
TDI
2009 Jetta
Canada has different laws than the US regarding diesel fuel.
Canada mandates the same lubricity as Europe (460 um as a hard limit), but at the same piss-poor minimum cetane as the US (40 cetane).
Bosch's spec is 460 um maximum, with a preference for 420 um or less.
(The US lubricity standard is 520 um as a soft limit, with a tolerance of 40 um to account for testing variances, meaning 560 um is the actual hard limit. And, there's little enforcement of that standard, and fuel testing at over 600 um has been found at pumps.)

Wow... maybe this is why VW is going hybrid soon ;)
 

Softrockrenegade

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2011
Location
Howellbama, NJ
TDI
None...2011 Golf DSG (replaced by VW W/) 2013 Passat SE 6M(bought back) Current 2017 sportwagen TSI 4Motion.
It sucks that our fuel at most stations is lousy compared to Canada and Europe , but find a good soy bio source, fill with b5 and a water dispersant and keep your fuel system happy :D doing this will keep your wear scar well below spec .....
 

RabbitGTI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 20, 1997
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
B4 Passat Sedan
^^^ Is that true? Would that for sure make up for the low lubricity? How about dumping in 8-16 oz of Power Service at each fill?
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
RabbitGTI: It's worth reading the Spicer report.

In an actual test, B2 turns out to be the best lubricity additive by far.

Power Service helped, but it didn't bring the fuel into spec.
 

RabbitGTI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 20, 1997
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
B4 Passat Sedan
RabbitGTI: It's worth reading the Spicer report.

In an actual test, B2 turns out to be the best lubricity additive by far.

Power Service helped, but it didn't bring the fuel into spec.
Thanks! So if I buy a CR, I have to keep a jug of biodiesel in the garage. I have to email that report to some people who think PS will save them.
 

pknopp

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Location
WV
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen
Thanks! So if I buy a CR, I have to keep a jug of biodiesel in the garage. I have to email that report to some people who think PS will save them.
There is no indication that they must add anything to "save them".
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
No.

I don't care if Irving is a Canadian company. Unless they're trucking fuel in from Canada, additivized to Canada's retail standards, you're getting the same crap that every other station sells. And, they're not trucking fuel in from Canada, I'm almost certain of it. (Or, if they are, all the other stations in the area are too, and it's raw fuel, so it'll get the same cheap additive package, unless Irving is specifically advertising 460 um or lower HFRR.)

Alternately... BP is a British company, Shell is a Dutch company... so they have British and Dutch fuel, right?
 

tdipoet

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Location
hooksett, nh
TDI
'11 Jetta TDI
you're absolutely correct. they are not trucking it in from canada. it comes by boat.

irving fuel is refined in a single refinery about a stones throw away in st. john, all to the same (canadian) standards, and brought down to portsmouth in tankers where it is distributed all over new england.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Does the Irving refinery in Canada pre-additivize the fuel, or is that done at the station?

Keep in mind that most ULSD doesn't even come close to meeting US, let alone Canadian or European, lubricity standards when it comes out of the refinery. Additive packages take care of the rest.

Do all Irving stations actually get their fuel from those tanker ships, or do they get fuel from local pipelines and add their own additive package, like almost all companies do?
 

highender

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Location
Northern California
TDI
2012 Jetta TDI
A company called Tesla, which is not even profitable yet, has replaced and did major repairs under warranty, right before it expired, to build customer satisfaction...

http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motora...r-repair-just-warranty-expires-175103061.html

Volkswagon, if you want to be the worlds major auto maker, you should take note.

So far, I am disappointed with the 01M auto tranny, which broke down on me, , and the HPFP , which so far did not, as I only have 6000 miles on the New jetta.
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
Just to be clear- ALL ULSD needs lubricity additive. Natural lubricity is lost through the process of lowering sulfur content. Lubricity additives are added to the fuel after the refining process. There is no trick to refiniing it differently to acheive appropriate wear scar rating.

Here in N America the additive is introduced when the fuel is transferred to the delivery truck at the distribution terminal. In Canada, they use more lubricity additive because they have a lower allowable wear scar than here in the US. It's just a matter of how much lubricity additive is put into the fuel.
 

IFRCFI

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Location
Winchester, VA
TDI
2013 Touareg TDI Lux
A company called Tesla

Volkswagon, if you want to be the worlds major auto maker, you should take note.
A Tesla Roadster runs $120K, and is a limited production, boutique car....from a company losing $$. A VW is a mass produced, $25K econobox. Big difference.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

JSWTDI09

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
TDI
2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
here's an informative article on lubricity and distribution of fuel.
In this article, for the first time, I saw an answer to a question I have had for a long time. Right before the review, it says:
"According to reports made by biodiesel agencies, a fuel with a 2 percent soy (B2) content will yield a diesel fuel that, as is, meets the premium lubricity criteria.
However, it should be noted that the rising cost for soy has forced many bioproducers to seek alternative feedstock including animal and vegetable fats and greases. Compared to soy production, these alternatives are far more difficult to manage with reliable quality control and base standards. As a result, their ability to consistently provide the necessary added lubricity tends to be uncertain and unpredictable without first knowing the actual composition and history of the bio-components involved. Obviously then, one certain way to ensure optimum lubricity even with biodiesel fuels at the B2 level is to incorporate into the product an effective lubricity supplement."

This answers my question - are all biodiesels necessarily the same as far as being lubricity additives? Almost all of the tests (like the Spicer Report) use virgin soy oil based biodiesel.. Most Bio is not made this way. Much commercial (as well as homebrew) biodiesel is made from waste cooking oil, which could be animal or vegetable oil based (probably a mixture). This also means that the lubricity properties of 2% or 5% bio is a bit of an unknown since we don't know the base stock or it's properties. The article uses the terms "
uncertain and unpredictable", which I do not like.

I think that I will stick with commercial lubricity additives.

Have Fun!

Don



 

pwrhungry

Active member
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Location
germany
TDI
2012 Golf TDI
Just to be clear- ALL ULSD needs lubricity additive. Natural lubricity is lost through the process of lowering sulfur content. Lubricity additives are added to the fuel after the refining process. There is no trick to refiniing it differently to acheive appropriate wear scar rating.

Here in N America the additive is introduced when the fuel is transferred to the delivery truck at the distribution terminal. In Canada, they use more lubricity additive because they have a lower allowable wear scar than here in the US. It's just a matter of how much lubricity additive is put into the fuel.
Any idea of what exactly they add and if we can get it and add it ourselves?
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Because fuel is believed to be a cause of the HPFP failures, and this thread has been discussing the HPFP failures.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
I hate to be a Sunday morning grinch, but why has this thread turned into a fuel discussion????? Where are you Mr. Moderator?
This thread has been the ''catch all'' of all our BS for months and months. Sort of takes some of the BS out of some other threads. So,this thread is left to run wild.

How's the weather down there Dave? lol.
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
It is not the HPFP manufacturers fault. He agreed to the level of tolerances in the product with the corporation.
It is not the corporations fault, because the buyers demanded a competitively priced product.
It is not the fuel manufacturers fault that one particular car demands a special fuel.
It is not the EPAs fault that the clean air regulations have to be in effect.
It is the owners fault that they are so cheap in their purchasing habits, but they have to blame someone else.
The insurance company can not pay when there are so many problems.

What we need is a robust pump with better fuel. What we get is an ongoing argument about which corporation, individual or agency is at fault. If everyone does not do their part, the problems will continue to exist.

The only hope may be in tying the intercooler problems with the HPFP and transmission problems. The point at which the % of failure is singificant enough to cause a safety issue, is the point at which public attention will help in this whole matter. NHTSA should consider the broader picture, but then how was the problem written up in the first place.

The owners could seek to add a filter, a drain, and additives to help the whole situation, but it would sure require a whole new viewpoint before that happens, and special permission and help in doing all that. It really boils down to agreement between everyone.

eddif
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Myself, I'd blame the following:

Bosch for not making a pump tolerant of US fuel
VW for not making Bosch make a pump tolerant of US fuel
Fuel manufacturers for not making 460 um wear scar fuel (all the diesel fuel injection manufacturers want it, not just Bosch)
ASTM and/or Congress for not mandating 460 um wear scar fuel (while we're at it, can we get higher cetane on diesel, and higher octane on gasoline, without using fvcking ethanol? I know MTBE is bad, but when ethanol makes gassers run so much less efficiently that the entire ethanol portion of the fuel is wasted... then again, the subsidies on ethanol are going away, so...)
 

pknopp

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Location
WV
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen
Myself, I'd blame the following:

Bosch for not making a pump tolerant of US fuel
VW for not making Bosch make a pump tolerant of US fuel
Fuel manufacturers for not making 460 um wear scar fuel (all the diesel fuel injection manufacturers want it, not just Bosch)
ASTM and/or Congress for not mandating 460 um wear scar fuel (while we're at it, can we get higher cetane on diesel, and higher octane on gasoline, without using fvcking ethanol? I know MTBE is bad, but when ethanol makes gassers run so much less efficiently that the entire ethanol portion of the fuel is wasted... then again, the subsidies on ethanol are going away, so...)
So......how does one expect a government agency to investigate something that is at least in part, their fault?
 
Top