Europe is contemplating banning diesel cars

Powder Hound

Powder Hound

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If they're truly worried about NOx levels, then let them plant millions of acres of sunflowers. Sunflowers are a plant that will remove NOx from the air.

Otherwise, they're going to do what they will do. It is not for me to worry about it.

Cheers,

PH
 
W

wxman

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I'm to the point of saying let the Europeans ban their diesels. It may reduce Europe's, and thus global, demand for diesel fuel. Perhaps the price gap between diesel and gasoline will narrow in the U.S., especially after ultra-low sulfur gasoline is required in 2017?

However, I don't think this diesel hysteria in Europe is justified from an air quality perspective. According to Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT), diesel take rate in passenger cars in the UK was about 15% in 2000. Diesel take in 2012 was 50.8%. According to the UK National Atmospheric Emissions Inventory, NOx emissions from passenger cars fell from 396 kilotonnes in 2000 to 158 kilotonnes in 2012 (latest data available). Passenger car NOx comprised 22% of the total NOx emission inventory in 2000 (396 kilotonnes out of 1799 kilotonnes total), and fell to 14.9% in 2012 (158 kilotonnes out of 1061 kilotonnes total). So NOx emission, both actually and relatively, have fallen as diesel take rate has increased dramatically, in the UK at least.

It would seem that Europe would wait to see what effect Euro 6 will have on the emission inventories there. All new diesel cars in Europe are now required to meet Euro 6 standards.
 
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LarBear

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wxman said:
I'm to the point of saying let the Europeans ban their diesels. It may reduce Europe's, and thus global, demand for diesel fuel. Perhaps the price gap between diesel and gasoline will narrow in the U.S., especially after ultra-low sulfur gasoline is required in 2017?
However, I don't think this diesel hysteria in Europe is justified from an air quality perspective. According to Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT), diesel take rate in passenger cars in the UK was about 15% in 2000. Diesel take in 2012 was 50.8%. According to the UK National Atmospheric Emissions Inventory, NOx emissions from passenger cars fell from 396 kilotonnes in 2000 to 158 kilotonnes in 2012 (latest data available). Passenger car NOx comprised 22% of the total NOx emission inventory in 2000 (396 kilotonnes out of 1799 kilotonnes total), and fell to 14.9% in 2012 (158 kilotonnes out of 1061 kilotonnes total). So NOx emission, both actually and relatively, have fallen as diesel take rate has increased dramatically, in the UK at least.
It would seem that Europe would wait to see what effect Euro 6 will have on the emission inventories there. All new diesel cars in Europe are now required to meet Euro 6 standards.
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Bureaucrats are not the least bit impressed with the truth or science, no matter how much they make a big deal out of being focussed on doing things "scientifically". They'll do what they'll do and the plebes will just have to suck it up and carry on.
 
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FistLaw

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Wouldn't all this talk be extinguished if VW would just release a version of their super high mileage diesel hybrid? We've all seen the prototype.
For that matter I saw an ad in England not too long ago for a new mini diesel, 3cyl maybe, that said something like 70ish mpg.
Bureaucrats drive gas cars and SUVs, and big oil makes more money on gas than diesel.
If a ban ever comes I'm going frybrid.

Rant over.
 
TDIMeister

TDIMeister

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The proposed phase-out is in Europe where they already have all the super mileage Diesels.
 
Dimitri16V

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looking lately at all the decisions taken by EU on political, economical and national level , a ban on diesel cars would not surprise me

Europe is pathetic
 
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glick

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Let them ban diesel in Europe. All that nice diesel tech that VW has been reserving for the euro spec can come over here and the US will stop exporting so much diesel fuel that stays in North America and brings the cost down (although if they wanted to export some more of that fuel to Canada to drive down our prices would be more than welcome ;))
 
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puntmeister

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It sounds appealing, but the reality is, if Europe did ban diesel, VW et al would stop producing diesels. Its not worth VW's time to produce diesels strictly for the U.S. market.

That said - I don't believe diesels will end up being banned in Europe. When the European auto majors get involved in the debate, and the politicians understand domestic jobs will be lost as imports of Japanese gassers will replace European diesels, they'll back down.
 
bhtooefr

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Although, the European auto manufacturers have been selling quite a lot of gas engine cars of their own. IIRC, TDI sales have been declining ever since the TSI engines have become available, in VWs.
 
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heidelberger75

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How did we turn a couple of articles about the desire of the mayor of Paris to reduce the number of diesel cars in the city to "Europe banning diesels"??

For delivery vehicles and taxis it makes a lot of sense to instead use electric or even gas vehicles. Diesel exhaust in the city is bad. I hate riding my bike behind a diesel car that's just started up in the morning. In all honesty, European cities are much smaller and much more crowded than in the US and have many more bicycles and walkers. Less poluting vehicles make sense.

I'm not sure about the UK or France but in Germany it is not legal to remove the DPF from a vehicle. I think it's more common, esp in the UK, to do so.

As an FYI, In every city in Germany a car must have a "green" sticker to be allowed in the inner cities and if the vehicle is an older diesel it must have a retrofitted DPF to get the "green" sticker.

Okay, enough ranting. You can proceed to call me a communist :)
 
TDIMeister

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As The `Tooef mentioned, the thrust away from Diesels is not toward going backward to gasoline, but to electric. Why is it pathetic of Europe? Europe does not have any appreciable crude/shale oil reserves and relies almost entirely from imports and for that matter not from the most reliable or friendly of nations. The same goes for natural gas, on which Europe is almost completely reliant on Russia, which has on multiple occasions shut off the supplies and left people cold - I lived in Germany when that happened once.

The mainstream media have picked up on the erroneous reporting that France wants to eliminate ALL Diesels cars and phase out the availability of Diesel fuel outright. This will not happen - what is the truth is that France wants phase out the worst Diesel polluters, the older vehicles that pre-date emissions systems like DPF and NOx catalysts, say pre-EuroIV. This is nothing particularly new in Europe as regulations of this nature have already been in place for years in Germany (cf. Heidelberg's post above) and London's taxation scheme as but two examples.
 
TDIMeister

TDIMeister

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France has a certain historical attachment to Diesels. Rudolf was born in Paris and his engine was first shown publicly in the Paris World Exposition of 1900.
 
romad

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bhtooefr said:
The mayor of Paris ...
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There is the problem, Paris. I found the French people outside of Paris very warm, friendly, and helpful, but the Parisians arrogant and very unhelpful (especially the officials). Unfortunately, I can also say the same thing for the District of Columbia. :(
 
CZguy

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romad said:
There is the problem, Paris. I found the French people outside of Paris very warm, friendly, and helpful, but the Parisians arrogant and very unhelpful (especially the officials). Unfortunately, I can also say the same thing for the District of Columbia. :(
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It's sad, but unfortunately very true. :eek:
 
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wxman

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It would be one thing if Paris announced that all vehicles except EVs would be banned from that city, but if the articles have accurately quoted the Mayor, only diesels are mentioned in the ban. Nothing about two-stroke scooters (http://www.news24.com/Green/News/Two-stroke-scooters-are-big-polluters-20140513) or the fact that gasoline in Paris apparently has relatively high aromatic content (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/04/vocs-20130419.html). Aromatics like benzene, toluene, xylene, have quite high SOA yields (>33%). SOA is an under-appreciated contributor to ambient PM loads, IMHO.

Also, these articles continue to mention that diesels (even the current crop of clean diesels) have "many times" higher NOx emissions than current petrol cars, but never mention the much lower THC/NMHC, CO, and PM/PN than petrol. I've seen the official certified PN emissions of the gasoline- and diesel-hybrid versions of the MB S-Class, and the diesel hybrid had certified PN emissions about three orders-of-magnitude lower than the gas-hybrid version, i.e., lower by a factor of about 1000. The potential for unintended consequences is rather high if this strategy is actually adopted.
 
Mike_04GolfTDI

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Let me guess, they want to ban diesel cars for consumers, but not ban diesel for industrial and commercial use.

One fuel for us, one fuel for them.

One tax for us, one tax for them.

Much easier to screw consumers without upsetting business, industry, and government when we have our fuel and they have theirs.

I'm sure that's how it's meant to work.

It's obvious that politicians hate the common folk using diesel fuel.
 
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