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Old February 14th, 2011, 11:51   #181
PaulGiz
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Originally Posted by scdevon View Post
I don't see them producing two different spec pumps either. It's worth mentioning that quality control of ULSD in the U.S. probably wasn't all that great in the beginning and still might not be that great now; particularly with regard to wear scar rating. Europe probably has a leg up in Diesel fuel quality which could explain why pumps don't seem to fail in Europe as much.

In the early days of ULSD, it seems as if we had to rely on some "Bubba" at a fuel terminal to add enough precious lubricity additive to get our fuel to an unimpressive 520. A 460 rating is obviously better. A HPFP would probably operate for 30 years with 300 scar rating fuel. What wear scar rating does fuel have with no lubricity added at the terminal? 1000? 1500?
ULSD without additive package is in the range of 640-670 wear scar.

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Old February 14th, 2011, 12:00   #182
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Originally Posted by scdevon View Post
I don't see them producing two different spec pumps either. It's worth mentioning that quality control of ULSD in the U.S. probably wasn't all that great in the beginning and still might not be that great now; particularly with regard to wear scar rating. Europe probably has a leg up in Diesel fuel quality which could explain why pumps don't seem to fail in Europe as much.

In the early days of ULSD, it seems as if we had to rely on some "Bubba" at a fuel terminal to add enough precious lubricity additive to get our fuel to an unimpressive 520. A 460 rating is obviously better. A HPFP would probably operate for 30 years with 300 scar rating fuel. What wear scar rating does fuel have with no lubricity added at the terminal? 1000? 1500?
People who specialize in DFIE components are keenly aware of the differences in fuel, especially for something as critical as lubricity. Considering the quantity that Bosch makes these pumps in, I don't see where a production run for North American bound pumps and European pumps isn't feasible. There's been 100K CR TDIs sold in just the US only - 100K is not an insignificant production run, especially if there's additional machining or different internals that are required for the re-engineer of the NA bound components.

For example, let's say there's an extra $1 cost in parts and labor to produce the NA spec pump. Over 100K pumps, that's $100K. Let's say there's $10 difference - that's $1M, definitely enough to support a separate production run.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 12:20   #183
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Originally Posted by Westro View Post
This is the root of the problem.. you DON'T see this with anyone else because they chose to lube the lower part of the pump with engine oil and not diesel fuel like VW did. This could be fixed if they removed the diesel fuel lubed pump and put on a pump lubed with engine oil.... correct me if I am wrong but the PowerStroke, Cummins and Duramax all seem to have oil lubed pumps.

VW cheaped out and it will bit the owners based off of the track record of previous TDIs.
I don't believe the CP3 (used on all CR Cummins and pre-2011 Duramaxes) is oil-lubed.

Not sure whether the Siemens pump on the 6.4 PowerStroke was oil lubed or not. Those things blew up left and right, it seems, though - at least at first. Earlier PowerStrokes were an oil pressure actuated unit injector, IIRC (versus the camshaft actuated unit injector in a PD).

The CP4 on the 2011 Duramax and 6.7 PowerStroke is the same basic design as the pump on the TDIs, just with a second piston, to deliver more fuel.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 12:44   #184
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Some of us are saying to use an additive for good measure, but why should a new car be purchased knowing that it can't run properly out of the box? Running problem-free should not be a luxury, nor should it require the daily interaction of the user. If VW CR cars do indeed need an additive to run properly, why not design in a refillable additive system similar to Bluetec urea injection for exhaust treatment?

On one hand I hope that this issue gets as much publicity as possible so that VW will be pressured into taking corrective actions.
On the other hand, how would these negative publicity affect the resale value of our cars, even after a recall in the future? Does the mass recall of Toyota influence your purchase decision at all?
I have no problem buying a car that has had a recall and been documented as being fixed. My greater concern is that we are now in the fourth generation of the HPFP and don't know if this one really eliminates the problems, or just prolongs the ultimate failure.

I like your comments about a fuel additive. I know that most people on here do not believe in just drive and fuel philosophy, but at less than 20,000 miles, I should be able to take that stance. I also like the idea of a refillable additive system. I picture something like a windowwasher resevoir. You fill it with a half gallon to a gallon of additive and check every couple of fills to see if you need to add more.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 12:52   #185
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What kind of nut a that dealership gave out TDI's as loners?
I heard that BMW is doing this all over the US. Take your car for service and they give you a diesel for the day.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 13:14   #186
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Originally Posted by kjclow View Post
I have no problem buying a car that has had a recall and been documented as being fixed. My greater concern is that we are now in the fourth generation of the HPFP and don't know if this one really eliminates the problems, or just prolongs the ultimate failure.

I like your comments about a fuel additive. I know that most people on here do not believe in just drive and fuel philosophy, but at less than 20,000 miles, I should be able to take that stance. I also like the idea of a refillable additive system. I picture something like a windowwasher resevoir. You fill it with a half gallon to a gallon of additive and check every couple of fills to see if you need to add more.
Why make it complex. I thought 2% bio would do the trick for lubricity. Just dump in 1/2 gal and fill with ULSD. No need for extra tanks and plumbing and complexity. Someone postulated that VW would just start selling 1/2 gallon jugs of bio at the parts counters. Make it the good Euro spec stuff too while they are at it. Just give it away with an extended warranty. If you don't use the free bio then you aren't covered.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 13:31   #187
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Originally Posted by BarrieCommuter View Post
I was thinking about going for a trip to USA, but my Canadian car might suffer an HPFP failure as a result of a fillup at a station in the States. Then VW Canada will deny deny deny any issue in Canada, and turn a blind eye to any reports from the NHTSA. When I talked to my techs recently at my dealership they said "what HPFP failures are you talking about??????".

Imagine a warranty claim being denied because of a failure by the consumer to heed warnings of entering and fueling up in USA.
Simple fix 1: Don't fill up in the States. Works for being as much as 500 km into the States - enough for the return trip.

Simple fix 2: Carry a jerry can of Canadian diesel fuel with you. I've done this many times. Run the Canadian fuel down to a quarter tank, fill up with the American stuff, at the next fill up use half the jerry can and the rest the American stuff, at the next one the rest of the jerry can and the rest the American stuff, and that's usually enough to get me back on Canadian soil.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 13:38   #188
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Simple fix 3: Find stations along your route that offer B5. Fill up there while in the US.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 13:57   #189
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Simple fix 0; don't put gas in your diesel
Simple fix 4; do put additive in your diesel
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Old February 14th, 2011, 14:00   #190
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Originally Posted by BarrieCommuter View Post
I was thinking about going for a trip to USA, but my Canadian car might suffer an HPFP failure as a result of a fillup at a station in the States. Then VW Canada will deny deny deny any issue in Canada, and turn a blind eye to any reports from the NHTSA. When I talked to my techs recently at my dealership they said "what HPFP failures are you talking about??????".

Imagine a warranty claim being denied because of a failure by the consumer to heed warnings of entering and fueling up in USA.
Oh jeez. Keep receipts, treat the fuel if you're so paranoid. Driving is frought with risks from the moment you open the door and start the engine. Drive more, worry less.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 14:32   #191
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Originally Posted by Westro View Post
This is the root of the problem.. you DON'T see this with anyone else because they chose to lube the lower part of the pump with engine oil and not diesel fuel like VW did. This could be fixed if they removed the diesel fuel lubed pump and put on a pump lubed with engine oil.... correct me if I am wrong but the PowerStroke, Cummins and Duramax all seem to have oil lubed pumps.

VW cheaped out and it will bit the owners based off of the track record of previous TDIs.
OK, but diesel injection pumps have been lubed by fuel only for generations with no problems until now. Granted, ULSD poses some challenges for fuel lubed pumps, but with proper engineering, a fuel lubed pump can survive as long as an oil lubed pump. The HPFP isn't EXACTLY an injection pump, but it is similar.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 14:43   #192
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Originally Posted by dzcad90 View Post
People who specialize in DFIE components are keenly aware of the differences in fuel, especially for something as critical as lubricity.
This is serious stuff. At least before pump revisions;

600+ scar = Trashed pump

520 scar = A pump that will probably fail to live up to VW Diesel longevity expectations.

460 scar = A really good reliable pump possibly delivering hundreds of thousands of miles of service.

300 scar = a pump that your grandchildren will still be using.

Needless to say, we still have lousy fuel standards in the U.S. The scar target should be 300 to 400 without interfering with DPF's and such. 520 is unacceptable in my book and I take appropriate measures to improve my fuel.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 14:55   #193
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guys you didn't notice it was a tongue in cheek comment
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Old February 14th, 2011, 15:08   #194
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Originally Posted by BarrieCommuter View Post
I was thinking about going for a trip to USA, but my Canadian car might suffer an HPFP failure as a result of a fillup at a station in the States. Then VW Canada will deny deny deny any issue in Canada, and turn a blind eye to any reports from the NHTSA. When I talked to my techs recently at my dealership they said "what HPFP failures are you talking about??????".

Imagine a warranty claim being denied because of a failure by the consumer to heed warnings of entering and fueling up in USA.
If you are passing through Indiana you can get European grade fuel from this company: http://www.countrymark.com/pdr.cfm Their Premium-R is rated at below 460 wear scar, plus the company also makes bio diesel and each station owner can opt for 2% blend, which puts the lubricity at even better level. You can easily make it to the Hoosier state on one tank from Barrie.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 15:58   #195
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If, your worried about an attendant making a mistake fill it yourself.

Self-Serve is LEGAL for diesel throughout the US.
NJ law is N.J.S.A. 34:3A-4.

Not worth trying to explaining that to the attendant.
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