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Old August 29th, 2011, 23:19   #1651
aja8888
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Originally Posted by Plus 3 Golfer View Post

Piplelines do not require fuel to meet lubricity standards to be transported (cetane of the fuel must be certified to meet the ASTM standards before it enters the pipeline). The lubricity of the "raw" pipeline fuel is likely in the 650+ micron wear scar range. Thus, it appears we must "trust" the distribution terminal to add the proper amount of lubricity enhancing agent to get the wear scar of "raw" fuel down to 520 microns or better before the fuel is loaded on the truck.

Again what good is a standard if there is not independent testing of the fuel to check compliance with such a critical standard as lubricity at the retail level. Another reason for us CR TDI owners (besides the FIEM position statement on lubricity) to enhance the lubricity of the fuel we buy.
I work in the oil & gas/fuels business, now for 30 years. I'll repeat what I have posted here about a dozen times which almost no one reads, or cares to believe:

Pipelines transport fuel, that's all. Pipeline interface material (transmix: i.e. gasoline/D2 interface) is taken out of the line for reprocessing. Incoming pipeline fuel to the terminal is tested on-site in a lab.

Refineries make fuel to a spec. (that's all, unless they make chemicals also).

Terminals have computer controlled lubricity additive equipment to blend in third party lubricity additive formulation at the loading rack. Many fuel distributors have to have fuels tested for meeting specs. It varies by state and some majors do their own retail product testing as per their QA/QC procedures.

Independent tanker truck drivers cause the most issues with cross contamination as their trucks are not checked (compartments) for cleanliness or residual fuels. They can pick up RUG, PUG, and D2 in the same tanker.

Retail stations make mistakes with USTs by not watching tanker truck drivers more closely.
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Last edited by aja8888; August 29th, 2011 at 23:24.
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Old August 30th, 2011, 00:51   #1652
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aja8888, I have read what you have said before and understand the process (and I spent my entire 35 year working career in the energy industry before retiring).

I will repeat:

AZ does not test diesel fuel for lubricity at the distribution terminal nor at the retail pumps. In AZ, there is no independent third party ensuring compliance of lubricity standards at the retail pump.

The reasons why the fuel may not meet lubricity standards at the pump is not material to the consumer. We all know that sometimes "bad" products do reach consumers despite the best practices in the quality control plan / procedures of anyone that is in the supply chain. I doubt diesel fuel is any different.

As I spent the last part of my career as the chief corporate risk officer, I will always attempt to mitigate risk to the extent practicable. Even though the risk of getting poor lubricity fuel may be very small (perhaps like the 0.2% as in the HPFP failure rate of 2009 TDIs in the NHTSA), one tank can apparently have catistrophic consequences on CR TDIs. I will add lubricity agents (in my case one quart of B99) per fillup, despite the quality control at the distribution terminal and despite the fuel marketers like CountryMark, or the Chevrons et al in CA that some posters claim target lubrictiy well under the 520 micron wear scar level.
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Old August 30th, 2011, 04:17   #1653
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Originally Posted by aja8888 View Post
I work in the oil & gas/fuels business, now for 30 years. I'll repeat what I have posted here about a dozen times which almost no one reads, or cares to believe:

Pipelines transport fuel, that's all. Pipeline interface material (transmix: i.e. gasoline/D2 interface) is taken out of the line for reprocessing. Incoming pipeline fuel to the terminal is tested on-site in a lab.

Refineries make fuel to a spec. (that's all, unless they make chemicals also).

Terminals have computer controlled lubricity additive equipment to blend in third party lubricity additive formulation at the loading rack. Many fuel distributors have to have fuels tested for meeting specs. It varies by state and some majors do their own retail product testing as per their QA/QC procedures.

Independent tanker truck drivers cause the most issues with cross contamination as their trucks are not checked (compartments) for cleanliness or residual fuels. They can pick up RUG, PUG, and D2 in the same tanker.

Retail stations make mistakes with USTs by not watching tanker truck drivers more closely.
I have a few questions to ask a person who knows:

1..How much would 5 US gallons of gasoline left in a 1000 US gallon compartment change 520 scar rated fuel?
2..What would the new scar rating be?
3..Will the old oil scar testing machines even come close to testing diesel fuel? Or ... Who can test the scar length rating of diesel?

It is time we quit guessing and establish some guidelines. I understand that 5 gallons might squeak through and 7 gallons be disaster, but we have got to start somewhere. IMHO.

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Old August 30th, 2011, 05:42   #1654
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Its cost prohibited for us to test fuel. I checked with one lab and a lubricity test was over $600.00. Complete ASTM test ran over $1,700.00. Plus the test isn't going to prove anything other than the specs of the specific fuel load tested. Next load may be entirely different. As far as fuel goes, you just buy it and take your chances with a CR. Fuel specs didn't matter much with previous engines. They might run a little better or worse with different fuels,but it didn't destroy the fuel system.
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Old August 30th, 2011, 06:04   #1655
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Thanks for the reassurance I'm loving it soo far !!!


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Old August 30th, 2011, 08:34   #1656
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Originally Posted by Plus 3 Golfer View Post
aja8888, I have read what you have said before and understand the process (and I spent my entire 35 year working career in the energy industry before retiring).

Thanks for the history, that was not known by me or possibly others here.

As I spent the last part of my career as the chief corporate risk officer, I will always attempt to mitigate risk to the extent practicable. Even though the risk of getting poor lubricity fuel may be very small (perhaps like the 0.2% as in the HPFP failure rate of 2009 TDIs in the NHTSA), one tank can apparently have catistrophic consequences on CR TDIs. I will add lubricity agents (in my case one quart of B99) per fillup,

I'm with you on this practice, even though I do not own an 09 - 11 CRD.

despite the quality control at the distribution terminal and despite the fuel marketers like CountryMark, or the Chevrons et al in CA that some posters claim target lubrictiy well under the 520 micron wear scar level.
CountryMark is one of my clients in Indiana and a real exception in the oil patch as for as a refiner, and now producer of crude with over a 1,000 wells purchased last year and a new drilling program.
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Old August 30th, 2011, 08:36   #1657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddif View Post
I have a few questions to ask a person who knows:

1..How much would 5 US gallons of gasoline left in a 1000 US gallon compartment change 520 scar rated fuel?
2..What would the new scar rating be?
3..Will the old oil scar testing machines even come close to testing diesel fuel? Or ... Who can test the scar length rating of diesel?

It is time we quit guessing and establish some guidelines. I understand that 5 gallons might squeak through and 7 gallons be disaster, but we have got to start somewhere. IMHO.

eddif
I am not qualified to answer your three questions above.
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........"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face." -- philosopher Mike Tyson.
Bring the 1971 Beetle back to life thread:
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Old August 30th, 2011, 10:20   #1658
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Originally Posted by Softrockrenegade View Post
These threads are starting to make me paranoid I was soo happy with my 2011 golf tdi and joined this forum but now feel as of it's going to die right after the warranty expires !!!! I bought a tdi as a car that could take a long commute and last many years and miles . . .


Relax! No need to hit the panic button.

However, read study and understand such topics as:

http://www.johnfjensen.com/Diesel_fu...itive_test.pdf

Learn why it may be important for you to add some good additives(s).

Many here do, myself included, to be sure that the supposedly good quality
D2 fuel that is purchased more than meets the lubricating ability required
using a device called a “High Frequency Reciprocating Rig” or HFRR.

How do we know what the HFRR rating really is for the D2 we purchase?
That's why I always add one liter of biodiesel and approximately four (4) ounces of Opti-Lube XPD
to each full tank in my JSW. 18 months in use with 37K miles now and running like a
fine watch and getting better with each additional mile.

Keep the faith, use an additive and enjoy your fine new car.
Don't worry, as it seems that the later models such as yours are not having as
many HPFP problems as did the earlier or first (2009s) CR TDI models.



D
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Old August 30th, 2011, 10:41   #1659
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Derrel, thanks for the recommendation !! When you say you add a liter or bio is that b100 or a lower blend ? And also in my owners manual it recomends no additives , will using one such as your recommendation void the factory warrenty ?

Thanks ,
Ryan
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Old August 30th, 2011, 10:50   #1660
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Derrel, thanks for the recommendation !! When you say you add a liter or bio is that b100 or a lower blend ? And also in my owners manual it recomends no additives , will using one such as your recommendation void the factory warrenty ?

Thanks ,
Ryan
1L or 1qt of B100 to a tank of fresh D2 produces ~B2, VW approves up to B5 (stated in your owners manual), so you're good.
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Old August 30th, 2011, 11:07   #1661
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Originally Posted by tcp_ip_dude View Post
1L or 1qt of B100 to a tank of fresh D2 produces ~B2, VW approves up to B5 (stated in your owners manual), so you're good.
I read that but I was more specifically asking about the lubricating additive
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Old August 30th, 2011, 11:09   #1662
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Originally Posted by Softrockrenegade View Post
I read that but I was more specifically asking about the lubricating additive
B2 is the best lubricity additive you can get, which is why so many of us with CR engines use it; I mail order 5gal of B100 from www.hyperfuels.com just for that purpose (can't get pump bio where I live.) I also add PS for water management, even though it also improves lubricity.
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Old August 30th, 2011, 11:33   #1663
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CountryMark is one of my clients in Indiana and a real exception in the oil patch as for as a refiner, and now producer of crude with over a 1,000 wells purchased last year and a new drilling program.
I've been using CountryMark Premium-R since learning about the HPFP issue (and I did pay attention when you said you knew the guys that started the company and they were doing good things). I used to drive by one of their stations way out in the boondocks but never knew what they were. That's where I got my first tank of B-2 in 2009. I went in and talked to the owner and he explained lubricity to me. I must admit, however, as a proud 6th generation Hoosier, I'm surprised that the company is in Indiana. We in this state aren't known for doing things ahead of the curve, so to speak. In fact, Hoosiers seem to be some of the last folks to take up the newfangled, only after watching safely from a distance while others do the beta-testing. If you saw the station where i buy my diesel (I drive 20 miles outside of Indy to a farm town) you would never guess they were selling high grade fuel. It's very dumpy looking but I've noticed all the municipal and county vehicles, both diesel and gas, fuel up there. From what I was told, each station owner has the option of having bio added to his Premium-R (which is already less than 460 wear scar). Although it's not listed on the pump, the diesel I buy is now 5%, up from 2% last year. The owner told me that with the B-5, CountryMark checks his tank for water gratis on a regular basis. But, believe me, this stuff ain't cheap. If my pump shreds anyway I'm going to really have to eat crow.
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Old August 30th, 2011, 11:55   #1664
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Originally Posted by Softrockrenegade View Post
...in my owners manual it recomends no additives , will using one such as your recommendation void the factory warrenty ?

Thanks ,
Ryan
Ask yourself:
Do they mean using additives will void the warranty, or are they making a general statement to cover themselves because of 'snake oil' additives that may do more harm than good?
Remember that they do have wording allowing up to 5% biodiesel in the manual and on the fuel cap. 5% biodiesel is an additive by any definition.
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Old August 30th, 2011, 13:48   #1665
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... And also in my owners manual it recomends no additives , will using one such as your recommendation void the factory warrenty ?
This is really two questions:
1) VW recommends no additives. This is rather imprecise wording. Do they mean that they recommend that you use no additives at all, or do they mean that they recommend no specific additive? Almost all diesel fuel (except the cheapest truck stop "rot-gut") contains additives. The retailers add their own additive packages at the terminal. How is VW (or anybody else) going to tell what additive was added by the retailer and what was added by you? I suspect that VW will not recommend any specific additive is because they do not want to test hundreds of additives to see which ones are safe. Also, the additive companies are not willing to pay VW for an endorsement. Their non-recommendation is really more of a legal CYA than a ban on additive usage.

2) voiding warranty: As stated above how will VW prove what additives were added by you and which by the oil companies? Fuel additive chemistry is pretty well known and most additive companies use pretty much the same ingredients, perhaps in differing amounts, but it's not rocket science. Also in the US we have a law that states that the dealer must prove that some aftermarket part or additive caused the failure in order to void the warranty. Therefore voided warranties should not be an issue.

Have Fun!

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