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Old July 29th, 2011, 18:19   #1531
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So, the emissions control systems can easily handle biodiesel (and in pickup truck applications, B20 is allowed.)

Have there been any studies on B20 and B100's effect on the lubrication oil in through-the-engine post-injection systems?
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Old July 29th, 2011, 22:04   #1532
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Originally Posted by tditom View Post
Dan-
The suggestion was to use up to 5% biodiesel. Nothing you shared from the other site would contradict that.
Someone once told me that if gasoline can kill you why drink even a spoonful? My point is if damage can be done with B20 or more why use any. Do we really know the longterm outcome with the CR motor? I don't think so but than again I could be wrong.

For me I'm sticking with no additives and no bio for now. Will see what happpens.


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Old July 29th, 2011, 22:20   #1533
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I think this applies here:
Quote:
Fear, uncertainty and doubt, frequently abbreviated as FUD, is a tactic used in sales, marketing, public relations,[1][2] politics and propaganda. FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence public perception by disseminating negative and dubious/false information designed to undermine the credibility of their beliefs. An individual firm, for example, might use FUD to invite unfavorable opinions and speculation about a competitor's product; to increase the general estimation of switching costs among current customers; or to maintain leverage over a current business partner who could potentially become a rival.
The term originated to describe disinformation tactics in the computer hardware industry and has since been used more broadly.[3] FUD is a manifestation of the appeal to fear.
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Old July 29th, 2011, 22:54   #1534
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Originally Posted by GTIDan View Post
Someone once told me that if gasoline can kill you why drink even a spoonful? My point is if damage can be done with B20 or more why use any. Do we really know the longterm outcome with the CR motor? I don't think so but than again I could be wrong.

For me I'm sticking with no additives and no bio for now. Will see what happpens.


Dan
I think your point is a good one but you're missing two things:

1. Improved lubricity vs. biodiesel risks.
2. VW has apparently studied the issue and determined that B5 and lower will not cause oil dilution that is significant enough to be a concern -- as long as oil changes are done at recommended intervals.

If all the #2 fuel in the US had a 460 or below wear scar rating, then I agree with you that avoiding biodiesel altogether makes good sense. Unfortunately, our wear scar standard exceeds the level recommended by Bosch and an engine manufacturers' association.

tditom has shared some information in the past that says 1% biodiesel (generally?) is adequate to get to 460 or better lubricity. So, the argument against B5 probably has some credibility. Why use B5 instead of limiting oneself to B2 or B1?
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Old July 29th, 2011, 23:17   #1535
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Originally Posted by oxford_guy View Post
I think your point is a good one but you're missing two things:

1. Improved lubricity vs. biodiesel risks.
2. VW has apparently studied the issue and determined that B5 and lower will not cause oil dilution that is significant enough to be a concern -- as long as oil changes are done at recommended intervals.

If all the #2 fuel in the US had a 460 or below wear scar rating, then I agree with you that avoiding biodiesel altogether makes good sense. Unfortunately, our wear scar standard exceeds the level recommended by Bosch and an engine manufacturers' association.

tditom has shared some information in the past that says 1% biodiesel (generally?) is adequate to get to 460 or better lubricity. So, the argument against B5 probably has some credibility. Why use B5 instead of limiting oneself to B2 or B1?
Just curious here..................what engine manufacturers' association?

76 stations here in California have a scar rating of 480 or less according to information I received from them. ARCO and Shell have also said their fuel has a scar rating of well under 520........but wouldn't say by how much.

I agree that 460 would be nice but one would think (VW in this case) they would know what the rating is and act accordingly.

Have a good one......... time will tell us what the truth really is.

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Old July 29th, 2011, 23:46   #1536
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Originally Posted by GTIDan View Post
Just curious here..................what engine manufacturers' association?
It's called Engine Manufacturers' Association, or EMA. It's not a very creative name. It's referenced by quite a few additive-making companies:

Google for engine, manufacturers, association, wear, scar, lubricity

Their website and publications.

Member companies:

Quote:
AGCO Corporation
American Honda Motor Company, Inc.
Briggs & Stratton Corporation
Caterpillar Inc.
Chrysler Group LLC
Cummins Inc.
Daimler Trucks North America LLC
Deere & Company
DEUTZ Corporation
Dresser Waukesha
Fiat Powertrain Technologies S.p.A.
Ford Motor Company
General Motors Company
Hino Motors, Ltd.
Isuzu Manufacturing Services of America, Inc.
Kohler Company
Komatsu Ltd.
Kubota Engine America Corporation
Navistar, Inc.
Onan - Cummins Power Generation
PACCAR Inc
Scania CV AB
Tognum America, Inc.
Volkswagen of America, Inc.
Volvo Powertrain Corporation
Wärtsilä North America, Inc.
Yamaha Motor Corporation
Yanmar America Corporation
Quote:
Originally Posted by their 2005 paper, North America Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel Properties

Cetane.

Using ASTM D 613, ULSD fuel should have a minimum cetane number of 43. Although ASTM D975 currently requires a minimum cetane number of 40, EMA has asked ASTM to revise the standard to require a minimum cetane number of 43. EMA and its members believe such an increase will improve the sociability aspects of diesel fuel performance, such as white smoke, engine starting and engine combustion noise.

Lubricity.

Regardless of the fuel sulfur level, ASTM D975 currently requires lubricity specified as a maximum wear scar diameter of 520 micrometers using the HFRR test method (ASTM D6079) at a temperature of 60C. Based on testing conducted on ULSD fuels, however, fuel injection equipment manufacturers have required that ULSD fuels have a maximum wear scar diameter of 460 micrometers. EMA recommends that the lubricity specification be consistent with the fuel injection equipment manufacturers recommendation.
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Originally Posted by GTIDan View Post
I agree that 460 would be nice but one would think (VW in this case) they would know what the rating is and act accordingly.
VW sanctions up to 5% biodiesel, so the same point you made about wear scar applies to that, eh?
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Old July 30th, 2011, 04:13   #1537
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Listening to all this just leads me to a single thought on using Biodiesel. You have to lower the OCI in relation to how much Biodiesel you use.

The other thought is. No matter how many people complain, there are other additives.

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Old July 30th, 2011, 06:33   #1538
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Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
...Have there been any studies on B20 and B100's effect on the lubrication oil in through-the-engine post-injection systems?
NREL did a study in 2009 of B20 oil dilution impacts on light-duty diesel vehicles...

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels...pdfs/44833.pdf

From conclusion...

Quote:
...There were no obvious biodiesel specific effects on used lube oil properties, and most changes appeared to be consistent with normal lube oil aging. Based on a comparison of TBN and TAN, oil service life was never exceeded in these tests. Despite these biodiesel oil dilution levels, no impacts were observed on the performance of the engine or the emission control systems....

...no biodiesel-related wear and engine mechanics deterioration were found after the hardware was exposed to an accelerated aging protocol of twice the engine’s useful life....
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Old July 30th, 2011, 06:50   #1539
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Originally Posted by eddif View Post
Listening to all this just leads me to a single thought on using Biodiesel. You have to lower the OCI in relation to how much Biodiesel you use.

eddif
Agree 100%!!!!!!

The information available on this topic is absolute. Mann has notes to their customers to take care when adopting Biodiesel re: hypercleaning, algae and fuel dilution.

Chevron has a report that notes that the amount of Biodiesel that ends up in the oil sump accumulates as it does not burn off.

Almost all current model UOAs show little fuel dilution, however it is of interest that almost all who show fuel dilution involve Biodiesel.

The report linked above shows 2X fuel dilution when using Biodiesel vs. diesel!!!!!

As eddif stated, shorten your OCI if you use Biodiesel.

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Old July 30th, 2011, 07:41   #1540
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Except, that report also said that the lubrication properties weren't affected, and that the engine was not worn excessively due to the biodiesel even to twice the engine's useful life.

So, in other words, what that study is saying is that there is dilution, but it doesn't matter.
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Old July 30th, 2011, 09:36   #1541
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...and at "additive" levels (up to 5% biodiesel) you can stick with a 10K mi OCI, so no negative impact at all.
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Old July 30th, 2011, 13:09   #1542
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Actually, skimming through that, they even took things out to 20,000 mile OCIs, on their test engine (which I believe is a Mercedes engine).
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Old July 30th, 2011, 13:40   #1543
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I guess than it all boils down to risk.

Do you wanna or don't ya use bio?

Sooner or later some absolutes will surface and will be posted here.

If one of the major oil retailers offered B1-B5 around my neck of the woods I would try it. But from an independent...........no way.

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Old July 30th, 2011, 14:24   #1544
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Originally Posted by GTIDan View Post
I guess than it all boils down to risk.

Do you wanna or don't ya use bio?

Sooner or later some absolutes will surface and will be posted here.

If one of the major oil retailers offered B1-B5 around my neck of the woods I would try it. But from an independent...........no way.

Why don't you get yourself some nice ASTM grade Bio and blend it in? I have been doing that for years now. There is a small refiner up in Bakersfield that makes it.
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Old July 30th, 2011, 15:57   #1545
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
NREL did a study in 2009 of B20 oil dilution impacts on light-duty diesel vehicles...

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels...pdfs/44833.pdf

From conclusion...
They think a diesel engine should only last 120,000 miles. The amount of dilution was only 8%.

I do not know if I would even want to consider any test that did not hope to see at least 300,000 miles as a reasonable expected lifetime (then the double mileage would be 600,000 miles).

What about 30% dilution if regeneration pushed it that high?

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