Total ban of R134a by 2016

AndyBees

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The EPA is like the Corps of Engineers, ........ must never work yourself out of a job.
 

maybe368

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This came out last year, but it's the first I've heard about it.

Here's the link.

http://www.volk37.com/alternatives-of-r134a-refrigerant-in-car-ac/

Fortunately, it looks like the new refrigerants will have to be compatible with existing car AC systems. I hope that turns out to be true.


.
Turns out that R-134a is nearly as damaging to the ozone layer as R12 was. The ozone layer has made a remarkable recovery since the ban on r-12, sometimes the government does get it right. Back in the 90's, when the "future" ban on r-12 was announced, I told everyone that would listen to go out and buy a supply of r-12 while it was still cheap. I still have a 30 pound bottle of it that I paid 24 bucks for, it is now worth a grand or more. I might sell it, because the iso-butane mixes are great drop in replacements...Mark
 

Tuco

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I thought the R134a ban is due to the greenhouse effect, rather than ozone layer depletion.
 

AndyBees

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In the early fall of 1992, Walmart was selling R12 for $1.00 per 12 oz can. They had pallets of it sitting out in the isles. By the end of 1992, it was all but gone. In 1995 I purchased a keg of R12 for about $300.00 and then sold it about 10 years later for $350.00 to a friend, although I knew it was worth more.

Apparently 134a is not as damaging to the Ozone or it would not be recovering.
 

thecause17

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Apparently 134a is not as damaging to the Ozone or it would not be recovering.
There are also stricter controls in place these days in reference to venting it to the atmosphere as well. This may also be helping. Not that people don't still do it, but I'm sure awareness is much greater than it was 20 years ago and it happens less.
 

maybe368

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There are also stricter controls in place these days in reference to venting it to the atmosphere as well. This may also be helping. Not that people don't still do it, but I'm sure awareness is much greater than it was 20 years ago and it happens less.
Bingoi, I personally bought a freon recovery system and several recovery tanks for the different types. My conscious would not let me vent it into the atmosphere. Also, freon was not the only culprit, the production of styrofoam is also a cause and there have been some controls on this put in place..Mark
 

belome

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When it was $1 a can and were were underage, we would hide our beer in the woods.

1 5 gallon pail + some water + some R12 = instant cold beer.

I'm sure that didn't help the ozone much.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Really? My 1-year old chiller at work is R-134a with no phase-out schedule at the time of purchase. That'll be interesting.
 

Wldrbeast

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The proposed phase out for the automotive application of 134a would not happen until 2018 I believe it is. I work for a commercial refrigeration equipment manufacturer and us and the supermarket equipment manufacturers are the ones that will be effected by that 2016 date. R404A is also proposed to be phased by 2016 for our equipment. Those 2 refrigerants cover 100% of what we use today so we are going to be busy if it goes through. There is push back on the EPA from the industry as far as these dates go so it could change.

Also the proposal applies to new equipment. The refrigerant will still be around, just no new equipment will use these refrigerants.
 

VeeDubTDI

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The proposed phase out for the automotive application of 134a would not happen until 2018 I believe it is. I work for a commercial refrigeration equipment manufacturer and us and the supermarket equipment manufacturers are the ones that will be effected by that 2016 date. R404A is also proposed to be phased by 2016 for our equipment. Those 2 refrigerants cover 100% of what we use today so we are going to be busy if it goes through. There is push back on the EPA from the industry as far as these dates go so it could change.

Also the proposal applies to new equipment. The refrigerant will still be around, just no new equipment will use these refrigerants.
That's good news. I have a brand new mag-lev McQuay chiller that's R-134a and a refrigerant replacement could be an expensive proposition. Fortunately, it shouldn't need anything for quite a few years to come.
 

meerschm

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http://www.epa.gov/ozone/geninfo/gwps.html

R134a released in the atmosphere sticks around for around 14 years and has the Global Warming Potential of 1300. that is, it has 1300 times as much impact as the same amount of CO2.

for comparison, this means that venting a 12 oz can has the same impact as 975 pounds of CO2.

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=307&t=11

you generate that amount of CO2 burning 43.5 gallons of Diesel fuel.

R744, aka CO2, has a GWP of 1.

http://www.environmentalleader.com/2013/03/12/automakers-develop-co2-based-air-conditioning/

VW is on track to use this.

R134A was originally chosen and fielded because it does not destroy the ozone layer. at that time, there was little understanding or concern on the concentration of CO2 and impact on the heat balance of the planet from increased levels.
 

fossill

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Watch the documentary "Gasland" and you will see that the EPA is is governmental hypocrasy to suit the political agenda of the day. So sad.
 

maybe368

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Watch the documentary "Gasland" and you will see that the EPA is is governmental hypocrasy to suit the political agenda of the day. So sad.
I think that you would be sadder if you couldn't drink your water and have to be afraid of it catching fire. Are you an American citizen? The EPA has little to no control over fracking because of the agreements orchestrated by Dick Cheney on the only truly public lands in America. So, I would be interested in any facts that you have to support such a conclusion. Also, I think Canada can take their Keystone pipeline and run it to their own coast. I am being nice here, because that is just me, you have a nice day...Mark P.S. The EPA was started by President Nixon by executive order, he was a conservative Republican.
 
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thecause17

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Watch the documentary "Gasland" and you will see that the EPA is is governmental hypocrasy to suit the political agenda of the day. So sad.
I don't have a whole lot of faith in "documentaries" these days. Any producer/director will skew a film to support their views so I take them with a grain of salt.

Most of the time now when I think of documentaries I think of Discovery Channel's jokes such as "Mermaids" and their sequels along with all the garbage Shark Week has on it now. Though they're blatantly obvious to be fake it shows me not to believe much that you see or read, regardless of it it's known to be fake or not.
 

GoFaster

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Also, I think Canada can take their Keystone pipeline and run it to their own coast.
Yes, indeed we could. If we do that (and it's under discussion) then the most likely customer will be China and elsewhere in eastern Asia, and you Americans would not have inexpensive access to it because your refineries are, for the most part, not on the Pacific coast. Do you want inexpensive and relatively low-risk access to the oil by pipeline, or do you want more expensive and riskier access by rail and sea while giving the inexpensive stuff to your worldwide competitors?

It is a shorter distance for the pipeline to stay within Canada and go to the Pacific coast, but it has to cross the mountains. The route south to your existing refineries on the Gulf coast is longer but through easier terrain, and likely with less earthquake risk. Also ... pipeline is THE lowest risk method of transporting oil. Railways and ocean freighters have more risk.

WE would rather build that pipeline. We are handing this to you on a golden platter, and you are contemplating saying no!

The oil is going to eventually go to market, one way or another. Not approving pipelines means it defaults to rail shipment, and unfortunately we have already borne some of the risks associated with that.
 

maybe368

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Yes, indeed we could. If we do that (and it's under discussion) then the most likely customer will be China and elsewhere in eastern Asia, and you Americans would not have inexpensive access to it because your refineries are, for the most part, not on the Pacific coast. Do you want inexpensive and relatively low-risk access to the oil by pipeline, or do you want more expensive and riskier access by rail and sea while giving the inexpensive stuff to your worldwide competitors?
It is a shorter distance for the pipeline to stay within Canada and go to the Pacific coast, but it has to cross the mountains. The route south to your existing refineries on the Gulf coast is longer but through easier terrain, and likely with less earthquake risk. Also ... pipeline is THE lowest risk method of transporting oil. Railways and ocean freighters have more risk.
WE would rather build that pipeline. We are handing this to you on a golden platter, and you are contemplating saying no!
The oil is going to eventually go to market, one way or another. Not approving pipelines means it defaults to rail shipment, and unfortunately we have already borne some of the risks associated with that.

Keep it, I'd rather pay more for fuel...Mark
 

Tuco

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Yeah clean air and water is totally overrated. That darn EPA is out to screw us all. The 60's and 70's ruled! Go pollution!
 

maybe368

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Yeah clean air and water is totally overrated. That darn EPA is out to screw us all. The 60's and 70's ruled! Go pollution!
Bravo!!! Yeah, I've always said that once you go polluted, you never go back...Mark
 

maybe368

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Anyone wanting a trip back to the good old days of early 1970's America need only visit Beijing. Lol. Breathe deeply.
The head of the EPA was on The Daily Show a few months ago and she listed the stats of the the things that have improved since the creation of the EPA. I don't remember specifics, but it was impressive. If we had done nothing, Beijing of today would look like a crisp spring day in the country. The Hurricane that just passed me here in Mexico deposited a ton of debris from the ocean, onto the beach. It was incredible and included a toilet of all things. Every kind of plastic imaginable. That was yesterday, today 90% of it was reclaimed by the sea and should be coming to everyone's neighborhood soon...Mark
 

jason_

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Oh man. I bought $300,000 of r12 and made bank when it was phased out.

Im $200k into r22 bottles in a storage bunker.

Time to buy 134a!



Sent from my rooted HTC Supersonic using Tapatalk 2 Pro
 

greenskeeper

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Yeah clean air and water is totally overrated. That darn EPA is out to screw us all. The 60's and 70's ruled! Go pollution!
The EPA had it's time and place and did a good job in the past cleaning things up. But now it has mutated into an ever reaching government entity with no checks and balances.
 

maybe368

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The EPA had it's time and place and did a good job in the past cleaning things up. But now it has mutated into an ever reaching government entity with no checks and balances.

Yeah, and racism is over in the USA and the world is full of unicorns. I am glad to see someone like you that is so trusting of corporations like Monsanto to do the right thing. If the EPA were to go away, we would be living like pigs in a sty, although I suppose that there are some people that like to live like that...Mark P.S. There's some coal in PA., Right?
 
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993er

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A total ban? I doubt it!

I can't see buying a 2015 model and not being able to have the AC serviced two years later if required.

I can believe a switch to another R XXX for new 2016 models.
 
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