Chicago 2009 TDI Owners: Non-Biodiesel Support Group

How are BP's prices on diesel? They used to be quite a bit higher than the rest of the stations. The one at Butterfield and York was about a quarter higher the few times I checked.

So I had a weird problem yesterday. I stopped to fill up my 09 TDI at the Des Plaines Oasis. Pulled over to the diesel side(where the trucks go) and went to fill up. However the gas nozzle would not fit in my fuel tank. I didn't see any diesel on the car side. Am I wrong? Is there something different about older diesel tanks? The nozzle had this big lip around it and it would not fit because of these 3 plastic peices that guide a normal nozzle. Any help is appreciated. I wound up filling up at Meijer in Rolling Meadows.

New station...Food 4 Less, Larkin Avenue in Joliet. No bio mention, ULSD. Brand new station, so I would think it would have bio stickers if they indeed sold bio.

Yea, but you would think all of them would but a lot don't. Food 4 less is owned by Krogers BTW. I like it-reminds me of Omni when I first moved here in 96.

yeah, but honestly, a few gallons of b11 won't kill it, in my opinion. This whole finding out the bio content is really getting tiring...

Miscellaneous Responses

Hi, everyone . . .

I have updated the master list in Post #2 to reflect all of the confirmed non-bio stations submitted over the past few days.

BTL, was anyone at Food 4 Less in Joliet able to confirm the fuel as non-bio? Let me know if any employees can validate. I have seen too many instances where lack of a sticker represents a "false negative."

lorloff, at the Mobil Des Plaines Oasis stations (eastbound and westbound), there is in fact a Diesel 2 pumps in the leftmost section of the car lanes. You don't have to go to the truck section!

Been doing lots of traveling. Up to Detroit back to Chicago and then to Columbus and back. Quite easy to fill up at Meijer stations along the way.
In Merriville, IN I gassed up at the Mobil there which had 40C Pure diesel. Amazing stuff. Immediately got the best gas mileage in the car so far.
While it can be a hassle to dig around and research for non bio, it makes such a large difference for the driving experience.

lorloff said:

So I had a weird problem yesterday. I stopped to fill up my 09 TDI at the Des Plaines Oasis. Pulled over to the diesel side(where the trucks go) and went to fill up. However the gas nozzle would not fit in my fuel tank. I didn't see any diesel on the car side. Am I wrong? Is there something different about older diesel tanks? The nozzle had this big lip around it and it would not fit because of these 3 plastic peices that guide a normal nozzle. Any help is appreciated. I wound up filling up at Meijer in Rolling Meadows.

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I have run into this once. There is a pump at the Citgo on Rt31 and 176 that I fill up at. Once side has a nozzle that fits nicely into my fuel hole. The other is like just a little bigger and is a PIA to use. I am not sure why the different size nozzles. I am even more baffeled at the stupid little fingers in the Jette's fuel hole that will not allow the bigger nozzle.

Hi

Hello
I also stay in the same area.
Please let me know which is the best pump to fill in for my new 2009 Jetta TDI.
I would really appreciate it.
Thanks

Jetta09Chicago said:

I visited the following station tonight and discovered it has reverted to biodiesel, so I have removed it from the list:

Speedway
798 Barrington Rd. (at Bode Rd.), Hoffman Estates, IL 60169
630-830-9420

This station has fluctuated back and forth. Back in May a cashier told me they had discontinued selling biodiesel, but tonight I found fresh new bio stickers on the pump.

We now no longer have any Speedway stations on the list.

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venkatpshr said:

Hello
I also stay in the same area.
Please let me know which is the best pump to fill in for my new 2009 Jetta TDI.
I would really appreciate it.
Thanks

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"best" is a tricky word

I would go to Shell... but I drive a 2003, not a 2009. just make sure you see this on the pump:

N8116B said:

I have run into this once. There is a pump at the Citgo on Rt31 and 176 that I fill up at. Once side has a nozzle that fits nicely into my fuel hole. The other is like just a little bigger and is a PIA to use. I am not sure why the different size nozzles. I am even more baffeled at the stupid little fingers in the Jette's fuel hole that will not allow the bigger nozzle.

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I think this is to prevent the use of the big nozzles. I used to think it was because some of the big nozzles would still dispense 500PPM, (i.e. farm use, some holdout stations??)

I think it has to do more with the ventless tanks we have on our cars now. My '97 and '03 had a manual vent you could press in when fueling. You'd hear a "pshhhh" sound, and then you could squeeze another gallon - gallon and a half in. The '06 and later TDI tanks do not have a manual vent, it's done automatically.

There's a station around here that advertises fastest pumps in town and can fill at 40 gallons per minute. That would just be way too much foam for your tank to handle and fueling would just be an abysmal experience in the first place. The big nozzles ususally just click off most of the time anyway when fueling a car - the fuel backs up in the filler neck, flows back to the nozzle and activates the auto shut off in the nozzle.

Jetta09Chicago said:

Hi, everyone . . .

I have updated the master list in Post #2 to reflect all of the confirmed non-bio stations submitted over the past few days.

BTL, was anyone at Food 4 Less in Joliet able to confirm the fuel as non-bio? Let me know if any employees can validate. I have seen too many instances where lack of a sticker represents a "false negative."

lorloff, at the Mobil Des Plaines Oasis stations (eastbound and westbound), there is in fact a Diesel 2 pumps in the leftmost section of the car lanes. You don't have to go to the truck section!

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Well I guess I am an idiot then. Thanks for the info. Make my life easier the next time.

lorloff said:

Well I guess I am an idiot then. Thanks for the info. Make my life easier the next time.

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no not at all, because you still managed to get the diesel

Testing for B11

OK Guys,
I need to collect some more fuel samples for some aging experiments we're doing with the Q 100 handheld. If you have some favorite stations you want to assure are not selling B11 but can't get a straight answer shoot me a message and I'll do some testing in the lab.

I'll need 50+mL (2+ oz) sent up to Milwaukee.

Scurvy can attest to me being legit. JasonTDI has even seen our handheld in action. The point of the handheld originally was to test for quality biodiesel, but our ability to measure blend percent is sure getting a workout these days.

Don't just start sending me samples. Contact me first! I have sample submission forms I'll send via email so we can log the samples.

cheers,
Kyle

quantum_tdi said:

Scurvy can attest to me being legit. JasonTDI has even seen our handheld in action.

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Eh, he's OK I guess.

Kidding. Kyle's a stand-up guy and knows his stuff. Jason was very enthusiastic about the handheld - I'd love to see it myself! Can you give everybody a quick idea of what information they'd get from it?

Sounds legit. I mean, c'mon. It'd take a he'll of a lot of 50ml samples to keep a TDI on the road

I should do this with two stations in town which are suspect.

Thunderstruck said:

How are BP's prices on diesel? They used to be quite a bit higher than the rest of the stations. The one at Butterfield and York was about a quarter higher the few times I checked.

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It's still higher than most, but that station is the only local one I've found to have Supreme or Premier, or whatever they call it. Seems the performance and mileage is better than the Indiana BPs I can compare with. Never spent the coin to get a fuel sample tested.

According to what I read here, Premier was discontinued several years ago. Are you saying it's back again? It used to be clear in color, like tap water.

dzcad90 said:

Sounds legit. I mean, c'mon. It'd take a he'll of a lot of 50ml samples to keep a TDI on the road

I should do this with two stations in town which are suspect.

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Considering I make fuel and live 3 miles from work I'm not too worried about my fuel bill. This is to broaden our fuel sample base. If you're not jazzed to participate in research, then think of the initial offer to appeal to your needs...

Hit the website in my sig- or our research
Petro Industry News

Blend percent to 1.5% (our research points to capability soon less than +/- 1%)
Total Glycerin in blends down to B6 (soon possibly lower)
Acid Number and Methanol pass/fail in B99/B100

cheers,
Kyle
(BTW Scurvy, you missed my wife's first homebrew- a really good IPA!)

biofuel testing

quantum_tdi ....I'll be up to Milwaukee/Waukesha on the 26th/27th and have a couple of (new-empty) oil analysis test bottles from blackstone that I could fill up for you. I wonder what they'll think when my fill up is only 4oz or 8 cents.
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I usually fuel up on BP, Shell, and Marathon. All fuel is verified thru distributors. But I'd still like to know what's in Jimmy's 'premium' Citgo diesel down here in Westmont. ...I've been watching, but have never seen a diesel fuel delivery vehicle in there...ever. Maybe it's home blended? What's the test proceedure for cetane? Can you also help us with cetane numbers?
.
Seriously....You should contact the Illinois Dept of Revenue....They would probably be very interested in your test equipment. Because the Illinois State allows sales tax exemption/credits for 10%+bio blended diesel fuels, The Illinois revenue agents are authorized to test the diesel fuel to make sure it complies to the minimum bio blend of 10%. If it doesn't then there's big fines-penalties-you name it for not paying the sales tax. AND Illinois is always looking for additional revenue streams. They'd most likely recoup their $5000 investment in your instrument on their first or second catch. Hell...I'll drive around and make tests for them for a $commission$.
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Oh!...BTW, please don't sell any of your testers to VWoA or any of it's dealers until after my warrany has expired. Just in case. OK?

Just got your voicemail Palos... let me know if you got the form to send via email. Instructions for return are on there.

Can't do cetane- you need a cetane engine for that one. SGS, Caleb Brett, or Magellan Midstream have labs with cetane engines. $$$ pricey test. The other option is to try to work with petro programs at local universities.

I'll plan on talking with you later today.

Oh, and we'd be fools if we were not talking with regulators and auto manufacturers. ;-)

cheers,
Kyle

Testing proceedure for % bio in diesel fuel

So.. quantum_tdi...
Yes, I received your email and the instructions are clear..no problem. ...But hopefully what you'll get from me is just straight D2. .....and I don't mean to waste your time.
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I feel that the fuel industry has to clean up the product, set some meaningful universal standards and label their pumps properly if VW and others are going to ever give us a green light to use B10..B11. Accurate and cost effective sampling measurement seems to be a good first step.
.
How far along are you in your certification process of the current test equipment? My point being...if you took a sample of fuel out of my TDI, would you have 'documented' proof that I may have voided my warranty if I had been fueling with B11? or B20?

The testing I'll do in the lab is the standard method (ASTM D7371) but we are not part of the ASTM round robin testing. Definitive proof is in the certified lab, but I can tell you to within a few tenths of a percent how much biodiesel is in the fuel.

The handheld could become a "substantial equivalent" given some time and a lot of testing, but I won't bore you with the vagaries of going through ASTM testing certification. We will see if that becomes necessary, but the handheld is a screening device at this time, and frankly that is what the industry needs.

cheers,
Kyle

Des Plaines: Mobil on Mannheim

2000 S MANNHEIM RD
DES PLAINES,IL 60018
(847) 827-5970

there's a sticker on their "Mobil Diesel Extra" pump that says:

Ultra-low sulfur highway diesel fuel (15 ppm sulfur maximum)

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no mention of biodiesel, didn't have a chance to talk with the employees. anyone know the scoop on this station?

QuantumTdi...

Have you been able to take a look at the diesel sample I sent you? Did you happen to find that it had any bio content?
.
The TDI runs just fine but I'm getting a strange discharge from the exhaust



[/IMG]

If your car is farting out cheese puffs, I think you need to get it looked at because you might have too much corn in your diet.

looks like peanuts.

corrado-correr said:

looks like peanuts.

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Ya know corrado.....you are correct...I paid for premium so I would expect peanut oil instead of soybeans.....

If quantum tdi doesn't have any success running his test on the diesel fuel I sent him to check for bio content, can I send you a sample to put in your refrigerator to see what happens?

Finding properly labeled diesel pumps - fact and fiction

You all must know by now that I enjoy having a little fun within a serious situation just to lighten things up every now and then. Otherwise I would just go absolutely nuts. ...and then again maybe I am nuts already.
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So, that said...it's back to OUR REALITY. ......And a rather lengthy post that should remind everyone here why this thread was started in the first place.
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Let me share a string of emails I received and sent with another new tdi owner who just wanted to help us locate another (non bio) diesel fuel service station source. Please, I don't intend to put him on the spot or be critical. After all this time and so many posts..maybe we need to reiterate the problem which drew us together in the first place... So here's the story....
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Mr E first wrote:

----- Original Message -----
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Mr E wrote:
Marathon Station 1201 E Central Rd Mt Prospect, IL Intersection of Rand Rd and Central Rd.
Station has correct ULSD stickers on pump. Just a young girl at the register today, so I didn't confirm with her. Have filled up here several times, and have had no problems.

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I responded:

Dear Mr E
I contacted the Marathon station manager, CRM, Inc. 847-635-3090.
They advised me that they are selling B11. Said it pretty matter of fact ish. So I tend to believe them.
I asked about pump labeling, but they could not tell me if they are properly labeled or not. There should be a blue label on it as well as the ULSD labeling.
There is a guy in Milwaukee that will run a test on the fuel to check for Bio content. It's kinda tricky to send him a sample. He needs 2 oz of fuel to run the test. See post http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2667453&postcount=233 If you are interested I can send you his email address.
The B11 may be OK for use in some cars but not in our 2009 TDI's.. If you are worried, then run down to half a tank or so and fuel up at another station with D#2 to dilute down the B11

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.
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Mr E wrote back:

Thanks for the information.
The only label on the pump, both sides of it, is the proper green ultra low sulphur label. So they are not conforming to the law. What can one do to remedy this? I have driven the car approximately 2500 miles, and have filled up there 3-4 times.

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Mr E wrote again:

What is the blue label for B11? If so, than there shouldn't be an ultra-low Sulfur label on the pump at all? I am confused now. Can you help me with the labeling?
Thank you very much,

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So I responded: and copied in Jess Hewitt of the Nat'l Biodiesel Board

Hello again Mr E,
ULSD-LSD-Diesel-Bio Diesel-B11
It's all very confusing isn't it?



Actually we need to understand and watch for two things when buying diesel /fueling our diesel cars:

First, ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel- sulfur 15ppm) only describes the sulfur content in the diesel and has nothing to do with the bio % content. ULSD is an absolute MUST for our new diesel cars! The other stuff (LSD) is sulfur 500 ppm. Mostly LSD is being phased out. You would only find it at some truck stops and maybe some rural locations,
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Second, we are not to use bio-blended diesel with more than 5% bio content. B11 is too much (but a few tanks should not kill our cars- (we believe)....just kills our VW warranty if we continue to use it.



​

There should be 2 labels on a B11 pump. "ULSD" and blue "bioblended diesel between 6 and 20%"
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I have atached a picture of the bio label for you along with a copy of the regulation from the federal register.
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A local fuel distributor named Texor supplies some of the Marathons around here. I just emailed them and they wrote back to me that your location Marathon 1201 E Central Rd, Mt Prospect, IL is selling B11.
So, If the pumps are not marked with the blue label then there is a problem. It is unlawful.
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It may sound strange but the folks at the National Biodiesel Board are really our friends on the labeling issue. They really want to make sure everything is properly marked and correctly labeled...to keep the industry clean so to speak.
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I have forwarded a copy of our emails to them (Nat'l Biodiesel Board)....I believe you will see the pumps properly labeled very shortly.
regards,

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One final response:

Good morning Mr E,

The situation that you and I have been working through is the exact reason Jetta09Chicago started the (nonbio) diesel support thread and I posted the google maps of user verified 'straight diesel' service stations in the Chicago area..

You won't find any stations in Illinois that sell B5 or <B5 bio blends. If they sell a bio blend it will be B11.

Some stations (speedway, thorntons, pilot) sell B11 in the summer and D#2 in the winter. The big brands, (BP, Shell) are busy selling off their 'corporate' stations. The independents including Marathon, and independant BP and Shell buy their fuels independantly and can change from D#2 to B11 as they wish. So...there's no cut and dry list of D#2 stations.

Because of mixing, tanker or tank contamination, whatever...diesel D#2 and Bio blended diesel up to 5% are considered the 'same thing' at the service station. And that class of diesel does not require a sticker of any kind. (other than the ULSD or LSD of course). Yes, it is very frustrating to me that the lack of a label is in fact (in the eyes of the fuel industry and the government) actually a form of 'labeling'. You can see first hand that it just isn't working.
and we don't seem to have the power ($$$) to correct it.

So, right now all we have is us.
Sorry,

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For what it's worth....and not that it helps Mr E after he's filled up with mislabeled diesel... Jess Hewitt (Nat'l BioDiesel Board) did respond immediately and let me know that he will be in contact with the Marathon owners.
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Does anyone know if there is anything we can do short of starting a lawsuit against a service station owner to obtain restitution (or should I call it retribution) on those that don't properly label their product? We shouldn't have to be the pump police. How can we effect a change to get pumps labeled correctly?...

Hello Palos,
No biodiesel in that sample. No FAME peak on IR and no detected electrical change from other B0 samples.

cheers,
Kyle