B100 in Rod's 2009 Jetta

Rodneyh1, have you read the theory that more agressive driving patterns may help balance the sensors? It was mentioned over on the other thread. What are your patterns like?

Lightflyer1 said:

Rodneyh1, have you read the theory that more agressive driving patterns may help balance the sensors? It was mentioned over on the other thread. What are your patterns like?

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Yeah, I'm following that thread, but I have a real hard time buying the driving pattern argument. With something as (apparently) sensitive as the DPF, I'm sure VW has come up with a way to keep it's temperature relatively insensitive to driving conditions. I believe time will show that there is nothing wrong with Nuerot's VW that is proven to be biodiesel related. There's certainly not enough incriminating evidence at this point for me to stop my own experiment.

I drive about 25% city, 75% highway. I drove it pretty hard for the 1st couple tanks for break-in. Since then I've driven pretty normal and fairly conservatively. I'd say maybe once a day I stomp it to pass someone, but other than that I stick pretty close to the speed limit.

I'm now at about 3,800 miles on B99 with no problems at all (other than 2 annoying interior rattles that I'm sure VW won't fix if they find out I'm on bio). I'll be sending Blackstone my 1st oil sample in a week or so. I was planning on an oil change at that time, but if the analysis looks OK I may just let it go out to the 10K mark.

Well you are the lone wolf now I think. Congrats on your trying this and for your success so far. I am actively watching your experiences.

Removing pollution controls

I am really for solving "how to use B100 in the latest diesels".

Having said that... just a comment on pollution controls. I do believe we need to keep them in place. Diesels do pollute. Particulates are especially bad for our health. In many places in the country, even if we figure out a good scheme for using B100 in '09s, we'll still be blending in the winter.

Just my $.02. Let's keep the pollution controls in place.

ikendu said:

I am really for solving "how to use B100 in the latest diesels".

Having said that... just a comment on pollution controls. I do believe we need to keep them in place. Diesels do pollute. Particulates are especially bad for our health. In many places in the country, even if we figure out a good scheme for using B100 in '09s, we'll still be blending in the winter.

Just my $.02. Let's keep the pollution controls in place.

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Absolutely! I will be making no changes to my emissions systems. Some of the mods I hear discussed are more environmentally damaging than just sticking with petrol diesel. Certainly they're damaging to the long-term viability of biodiesel.

Biodiesel supplier

All of the biodiesel I've burned thus far has been made by SeQuential Biofuels (http://www.sqbiofuels.com/production.htm). I buy it at a truck stop in Aurora, OR. From their (SQ) website: "The feedstock is primarily based on used cooking oil, secondarily regionally produced oil from seed crops like canola." Most of my future biodiesel will come from there as well as it's on my way to work.

This is mostly in response to questions on another thread. Just trying to keep info about my vehicle here, so it's easier for those following to get info.

Oil Level High

A pretty big concern has come up running B99 in my '09 Jetta. My oil level has gone up, and this time I am absolutely certain of it. At about 1,300 miles, this concern came up (previous posts in another thread) the 1st time. That was the 1st point that I checked my oil (yeah, I'm a fool), and it was a bit high. It was an 1/8" above the B range (diamond pattern on dipstick), which is still within the allowable range prescribed by VW (see owner's manual). Since then I have checked it every 100-200 miles. It never moved any higher on any check up to about 3,900 miles. Yesterday, at 4,050 miles, it was above the C range. This is definitely above the allowable range.

So here's what I've done thus far.
1. Drew an oil sample and sent it off to Blackstone yesterday.
2. Drew 22 oz additional oil to bring the level down to the top to the B range (that's the spot that most people would call full). You read that correct: I pulled 24 oz (total including sample) of oil from my engine to get it back down to the normal full level.
3. Drove 200 miles last night to get my B99 out of the system. I could not get a siphon hose into the fuel.
4. Filled up with petrol diesel.
5. Drove 10 miles to the dealer for an oil change (my cost). This is really interesting, but I'll put it in a separate post.

It now appears that there likely was an increase in oil level prior to 1,300 miles, then another increase at about 4,000 miles. The obvious suspicion would be that those coincided with regen events. Now I'm awaiting my oil analysis results from Blackstone. I'm quite certain they'll find a serious dilution problem. If they do, it may be the end of the road for me.

rodneyh1 said:

You read that correct: I pulled 24 oz (total including sample) of oil from my engine to get it back down to the normal full level.

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Rod, welcome aboard! Sounds like quite the experiment you've got there

rodneyh1 said:

You read that correct: I pulled 24 oz (total including sample) of oil from my engine to get it back down to the normal full level.

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The regen has been described as taking 15 minutes if you're driving at about 40 mph. you'd burn about a quart of fuel total normally during that period. In order for 24 ounces of fuel to go astray past the rings during one regen, it would have to be dumping gallons of fuel into the post injection cycle, dragging your fuel economy during that 15 minutes down into the single digits.

Wait for the oil analysis. Something else is going on here.

jvance said:

The regen has been described as taking 15 minutes if you're driving at about 40 mph. you'd burn about a quart of fuel total normally during that period. In order for 24 ounces of fuel to go astray past the rings during one regen, it would have to be dumping gallons of fuel into the post injection cycle, dragging your fuel economy during that 15 minutes down into the single digits.

Wait for the oil analysis. Something else is going on here.

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I wanted to run a couple ULSD tanks anyhow for comparison. I was planning on doing that immediately prior to my 10K service, so this just moves that up. I do know positively that my oil level has gone up by 10-15 oz in the last 200 miles, and that REALLY concerns me. I'll run ULSD until I see the results.

Here's an interesting thing or two:

reading the manual for my Forester Diesel, and specifically the sections on DPF and oil changes...

B5 is acceptable
regen is generally automatic, but a 15min run above 37mph is required to enable regen following slow-speed running. This is flagged by the warning light.
These slow conditions are specified as 9mph or less continually, extended idling, and repeated cold starts.

now here's the final and possible most interesting point: Oilchange data must be sent to the ECU else the DPF and it's warning light will not operate correctly.

Now, why would the DPF be interested in how often the oil is changed?...

DPM said:

Here's an interesting thing or two:

reading the manual for my Forester Diesel, and specifically the sections on DPF and oil changes...

B5 is acceptable
regen is generally automatic, but a 15min run above 37mph is required to enable regen following slow-speed running. This is flagged by the warning light.
These slow conditions are specified as 9mph or less continually, extended idling, and repeated cold starts.

now here's the final and possible most interesting point: Oilchange data must be sent to the ECU else the DPF and it's warning light will not operate correctly.

Now, why would the DPF be interested in how often the oil is changed?...

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That's really interesting, it says that in the manual? You have a diesel subaru forester?? I'm so freakin' jealous!

yes, and yes.

Rodney, Just wanted to say that I appreciate your careful approach and am looking forward to the Blackstone results. PLEASE keep us posted.

Hey guys, just a note. The post injection event does not result in combustion. The fuel is introduced to the gasses in order to raise the temps at the first Catalytic converter (resulting in rise in the other two).

The point is that Biodiesel may not be making it out of the cylinder and adhering to the cylinder walls where it is making its way to the oil.

4 cylinders, each with post injection...24oz increase in sump levels = very plausible (in my opinion) over 4000-5000 miles.

I know everybody wants to run first gen Biofuels but these engines were strictly designed for 2nd generation Biofuels meaning no more bean juice.

Again the only fuels intended for these engines is ULSD, GTL and Bio-GTL.

DB

DBW, thanks for the technical input. So the poorly atomized and errr ...for lack of a better word... sticky B100 may be rushing to the cylinder walls during the post injection and then finding its way into the oil?

I really would like to understand all of this, so perhaps you will humor me by informing me of something that is probably common knowledge. When does the post injection occur? During the exhaust stroke, not the power stroke right?

Lastly, Rodney. UOA info would be awesome, will you be posting it when you recieve it? Thanks all!

Cliffman said:

Rodney, I know this is probably a stupid question but... Are you checking your oil with the car parked in the same location every time? My 06 seems to be very sensitive to that.

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Yes, always flat.

Post-injection occurs either late in the power stroke (beyond completion of combustion) or during the exhaust stroke. Makes no difference; either way, if there are fuel droplets they could reach the cylinder walls, and inadequate atomization (due to viscosity, for example) will make matters worse.

Drivbiwire said:

Hey guys, just a note. The post injection event does not result in combustion. The fuel is introduced to the gasses in order to raise the temps at the first Catalytic converter (resulting in rise in the other two).

The point is that Biodiesel may not be making it out of the cylinder and adhering to the cylinder walls where it is making its way to the oil.

4 cylinders, each with post injection...24oz increase in sump levels = very plausible (in my opinion) over 4000-5000 miles.

I know everybody wants to run first gen Biofuels but these engines were strictly designed for 2nd generation Biofuels meaning no more bean juice.

Again the only fuels intended for these engines is ULSD, GTL and Bio-GTL.

DB

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Brivbi,

I don't thinks anybody is suggesting that others do this... yet. As even you have said, the biodiesel MAY not be making it out of the cylinder!

~BeetleGo

Rodnehy1,

Does Blackstone labs test specifically for Bio-Diesel? Reason I ask is that I use Oil Analyzers and they don't test specifically for Bio-Diesel. They test just for fuel contaminates which is for diesel and gas.

Look for thinning of the oil. Diesel oil generally thickens due to soot loading. A viscosity drop would indicate that it is being diluted with Biodiesel.

DB

Cliffman said:

Rodnehy1,

Does Blackstone labs test specifically for Bio-Diesel? Reason I ask is that I use Oil Analyzers and they don't test specifically for Bio-Diesel. They test just for fuel contaminates which is for diesel and gas.

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Blackstone uses some kind of flash point test for fuel dilution. They told me that they modify it slightly for biodiesel, but it shouldn't be an issue. Souded like they run across this fairly regularly. They'll also measure viscosity, which will be affected if there is significant dilution. I'll post my results as soon as I get them.

Oil Analysis Back

Blackstone finished my oil analysis yesterday. If someone can tell me how to post a .pdf, I can put up the entire report. They found a 2.5% fuel dilution level. This is above what they consider normal, but not what they would find alarming (I spoke to the tech extensively). The viscosity was "well within the normal range" at 9.36 cSt. The following is their summary of the analysis.




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RODNEY: We found some fuel dilution in this sample, but we tend to find a lot of junk in the factory oil, so we aren't going to call this level a problem. Most of the excess wear is from break-in of new parts and this should improve nicely next time. Potassium and silicon are leftover from when the engine was assembled and these should also wash out in another oil change or two. Universal averages show typical wear levels from this type of engine after about 6,100 miles on the oil. Suggest changing this oil to help clean the engine up and check back in ~5,000 miles.

I'm planning on keeping the experiment going at least 1 more round. Here's the plan going forward:

1. Continue running ULSD until 10K. I'm at about 5.5K, so it will take about 2-3 months.
2. Have dealer change oil / filter.
3. Switch back to B99.
4. Drive until I get a noticable (measureable) increase in oil level.
5. Pull sample for oil analysis.
6. Change oil.
7. Switch back to ULSD until 20K (but probably for good)

I'm not doing OA on the ULSD, because lots of other people are already getting that info. Plus, I'm pretty sure I can see this by closely monitoring the oil level (which has yet to change with 1,500 miles of ULSD).

When I'm done, I'll have a direct comparison between B99 and ULSD that should be fairly conclusive. 4K B99 - 6K ULSD - 4K B99 - 6K ULSD. It really doesn't look very promising at this point.

This is all if I don't chicken out in the next 2 months.


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If you email the PDF to me, I can put it up on the Wide World Web for all to see

PM for more info

rodneyh1 said:

Blackstone finished my oil analysis yesterday. If someone can tell me how to post a .pdf, I can put up the entire report. They found a 2.5% fuel dilution level. This is above what they consider normal, but not what they would find alarming (I spoke to the tech extensively). The viscosity was "well within the normal range" at 9.36 cSt. The following is their summary of the analysis.[FONT=Arial+0]

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So a half cup of fuel dilution. Clearly fuel dilution isn't the cause of your observed oil level rise. You still have 20 oz. of excess oil to account for.

I'll bet you a quarter that 1) you'll see no measurable rise using ULSD, and 2) you'll see no measurable rise next time you use B99.

Also, a high fuel dilution level very early in the engine's life may be an indication of slight leakage past the not-yet-seated piston rings. This may resolve itself as the engine gets some mileage on it.

I do not think you have any lubrication-related problem that can't be addressed by changing the oil at 5000 mi / 8000 km intervals, and even that might not prove necessary as the engine gets broken in properly.

Good work on keeping track of this!

jvance said:

So a half cup of fuel dilution. Clearly fuel dilution isn't the cause of your observed oil level rise. You still have 20 oz. of excess oil to account for.

I'll bet you a quarter that 1) you'll see no measurable rise using ULSD, and 2) you'll see no measurable rise next time you use B99.

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I think you'll be right on 1, but wrong on 2. I'm not going to take your bet, however, as this would provide motive for me to bias my results.

GoFaster said:

Also, a high fuel dilution level very early in the engine's life may be an indication of slight leakage past the not-yet-seated piston rings. This may resolve itself as the engine gets some mileage on it.

I do not think you have any lubrication-related problem that can't be addressed by changing the oil at 5000 mi / 8000 km intervals, and even that might not prove necessary as the engine gets broken in properly.

Good work on keeping track of this!

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The tech at Blackstone did talk about ring seating. That's perhaps the one explanation that gives a bit of hope. Repeating the test from 10-15K will eliminate this possibility.

Any idea what level of fuel dilution is too much? The Blackstone tech said 2.5% for an extended period would be bad, but it didn't look like I had done any harm yet.

I'd like to do another oil analysis on the same oil Blackstone tested (a 2nd opinion) using some of the 20 oz I kept. What's a good lab?

rodneyh1 said:

The tech at Blackstone did talk about ring seating. That's perhaps the one explanation that gives a bit of hope. Repeating the test from 10-15K will eliminate this possibility.

Any idea what level of fuel dilution is too much? The Blackstone tech said 2.5% for an extended period would be bad, but it didn't look like I had done any harm yet.

I'd like to do another oil analysis on the same oil Blackstone tested (a 2nd opinion) using some of the 20 oz I kept. What's a good lab?

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Try Polaris Labs in Indiana http://polarislabs1.com/ They were the ones who emailed me regarding the fuel dilution issue to begin with. Later!