Hybrid owners unlikely to buy another one, study shows

Just saw this link, guess people aren't satisfied with their purchase. I'd like to see a survey on diesel owners and the results. I for one would purchase another one!

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_ne...-unlikely-to-buy-another-one-study-shows?lite

Darn... you beat me to it.

Let the unbiased, club member opinions begin!


I considered the Prius back in '04 when I was buying my first new car but couldn't afford the way-above-MSRP price they were charging everywhere. Instead I got a TDI Golf (my first diesel) and have been hooked ever since.

I may be willing to trade it for an e-Golf though...

rode in a prius last week in vancouver. 100,000kms.....biggest piece of crap ever built......every bump was noticeable...last night drove ottawa to QC in my Golf....quiet as a church on bad roads....and 5.2l/100kms....dont nee no lousy hybrids till they show a real advantage over a TDI

As usual, the "study" looks at "what," rather than "why." So let's speculate on the "why".

Buyers are told that their pay-off for the higher price is X miles, then fuel prices drop and the price advantage drops and that pay-off is longer. It gets long enough that the car they are treating as a throw-away car has reached the end of it's "useful" life of 147,000 miles before that pay-off. The 147,000 is a number I just heard on the radio and is how long people expect their cars to last now-a-days.

There is this paragraph in that article:

There are other factors that limit loyalty. For one thing, there are a growing number of alternatives, including diesels – which are being offered in growing numbers – and advanced versions of conventional gasoline technology. The 2013 Nissan Altima, for example, is expected to deliver 38 mpg on the highway, Ford’s next-generation Fusion close behind at 37 – both yielding only slightly less than the current Camry Hybrid. Hyundai, meanwhile, boasts five different models now getting over 40 mpg on the highway.

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The ones I see around here like to feel smug, and therefore somehow they are more righteous and/or moral than the rest of us because of driving a 'green' car. All the ones I know personally do not know what a spirited drive is, unless it means going the speed limit over certain sections of road that desperately need repaving.

A guy that is in my work group wouldn't even consider anything else. Affordability wasn't even part of the equation when he traded his old one and bought a new one. It was entirely driven by the fact that they were afraid repair costs were going to become onerous and more frequent. And looking at battery replacement costs for the older priora compared to new ones - he was probably right. Toyota is slowly going to make it extremely cost prohibitive to continue driving one of these after a certain number of years. Not mileage dependent, time dependent.

Powder Hound said:

The ones I see around here like to feel smug, and therefore somehow they are more righteous and/or moral than the rest of us because of driving a 'green' car.............

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Yes, in some parts of the country, diving a Prius is thought of as "doing your part" in saving the planet. Good for them, as we need some planet-saving, especially back east (I spent 30 years in Connecticut).....Too bad they (the "savers") can't use some of that energy to knock down and clean up the old manufacturing plants that went out of business back east (old brass mills, etc).

Now in Texas, especially south of Dallas, we don't see many Prius drivers here. I wonder why?

I would speculate that most of the public think of diesels and hybrids similarly. They will make a change to save fuel, but really would rather have their SUV back. And like most owners, if they're faced with an impending major repair, they'll dump the car. There are lots of TDI owners out there who, when faced with replacing a turbo or even a timing belt, would rather sell. And enough (trust me, I talk with them all day) that are fed up with minor repair costs and hassles to not buy another TDI.

Most of the folks here own TDIs for reasons that go far beyond the desire to save fuel and money. But we're probably a pretty small part of the owner population.

Not liking repair costs - I have that in spades. But for me, one of the things I like about my cars is that I understand a lot of things about them and don't mind doing the repairs, and I actually can do the repairs. If it comes to getting into the electronic guts of a prius, oh my, you would be in trouble.

But yeah, there's lots of people who just don't want to get grease/dirt under their fingernails. Some of us can profit by that. And while I like to do my own wrenching, I'm way too slow to try and do it for others and their money.

As far as I can tell, none of the hybrids have really gotten the package "dialed in". Some the mpg is only marginally better, some too expensive, some have crappy driving dynamics. Or a blend of the preceding negatives.

That discourages repeat customers.

Nothing inherently wrong with hybrid tech. I think it really is a good technology and it has a place. Especially in urban driving.

But the TDI's, to VW's credit, really do a good job of balancing attributes. Things to ***** about, sure, but in general well done.

Around here, most (new) hybrid buyers won't ever keep their car car as long as many TDI buyers will. So I think that draws in a very different demographic, as the possible "payoff" of driving something more fuel efficient may not ever be gratified in the owner's stewardship of the car.

I service a lot of 250,000+ mile TDIs. And many of these owners are happy to spend north of $3000 to get everything back in shape. A Prius owner will balk at spending $500, and that very night be shopping for a new car instead.

My boss loves his Prius. It is his 3rd one. He would not dare drive anything past about 50k miles... which is what I do in one year. He'll tell you how great they are if you ask him. But his opinion is of buying one wholesale slightly used (maybe 20k miles or so at the most), driving it a couple years to about 50k and selling it off retail. So at that rate, he essentially drives for hardly anything, does hardly anything to the car, and usually sells for almost what he paid. So yeah, he would love the car! And he's tiny, too, so he can fit in them to boot.

The other thing to consider is that many non-hybrid gas cars are available with very good fuel economy now. No, maybe not as good as some hybrids or TDIs, but still good enough to easily see the advantage in purchase given how much less they cost. My sister bought a new Civic sedan in 2004. It was not the top of the line model, but it was pretty well-equipped, with A/C, power windows/locks, slushbox, etc. It was still a full $8k less than the hybrid version, and it still was able to get 35 MPG mixed, versus the 45 for the hybrid. $8000 buys a LOT of gas, and if you don't drive all that much, it would hardly be worth the extra money.

I dont know if it is this study, but I heard numbers on the radio for the payback in years for three sets of cars. Basically they looked at the time to recover the premium paid for the "alternative" fuel version. Payback for Nissan Leaf vs Versa - 7 years. Chevy Volt vs Cruze was an astonishing 27 years! VW TDI vs gas (any model TDI vs 2.0T)? Only 3 years to recover the premium - after that, it's gravy

Andrew

I think that is subjective. You can buy a 4cyl gas Jetta for $16k. It gets 30 MPG on regular gas. It will cost less to maintain. It has less things to break. The CHEAPEST Jetta TDI you can buy is around $22k. You can put that $6k saved in a wise investment, add the savings on less PM and less stuff breaking*, and probably stay pretty even with the diesel, especially if you don't drive all that much.

Yes, I know the $16k Jetta does not have a bunch of fancy stuff the TDI gets forced with as standard. But if you do not want any of that anyways.....

*the first words out of anyone's mouth when I tell them their 85k mile CR TDI needs $2300 worth of turbocharger is "Gee, I guess the fuel savings just went out the door."

As a hybrid owner for 5 1/2 years (my wife drives a Prius) we'd definitely buy one again. It now has 77k on it and is long past paid off. Other than a $70 water pump I put in myself, it has needed nothing but routine maintenance. We recently put tires on it and replaced the accessory battery (a Prius has both a small accessory battery, like from a large garden tractor, and the hybrid battery) and now I don't expect to need to do a thing to that car until it needs tires again in 50-60k miles. Maybe I'll do spark plugs at 100k. They really are not that complicated to work on. From what I read, the hybrid batteries are lasting a long time and can be reconditioned with new cells. Our battery is under factory warranty until 2014 / 100k miles. We will likely keep the car long past that point. We paid 24k for the car in 2006 and got a 3k tax rebate, so the car cost us 21k. I'd guess we could sell it for 10-12k today. Not bad. But it's worth more to us to keep it.

My TDI, on the other hand, has 76k miles on it. Since I have owned it I have put in about $1650 worth of repairs in a camshaft, lifters and timing belt kit and all the break-in oil, etc. Granted, I spent more for a quality cam and associated parts from Frank. Also, I put on a new alternator pulley.

In the next 50k, I expect I will need to replace the flywheel, but maybe I'll get lucky. Probably, it'll also need some other little things like a wheel bearing or EGR flapper, or who knows what. But the TDI is probably still worth a little more than the Prius, maybe 13-14k.

I'd buy both cars again, but neither completely for economical reasons. I think the most economical cars to go buy and still get pretty good mpgs would be a new Elantra, Cruze Eco manual or Fiesta or an old used gasser with a small 4 cyl. engine.

I read somewhere VW will be offering a Hybrid Jetta at the end of the year. They plan to bring vehicle handling for the first time to hybrid ownership. Estimated mileage was less than the Prius.

They had one at NAIAS in Detroit this January. 1.4L FSI engine more or less lifted from the Polo. It might sell here, but I doubt they could give them away in Europe. Not when a 1.6L TDI is available, that costs less, gets better fuel economy, and has more power.

Same reason the Prius is a slow seller there: why buy that for $25k+ when you can buy a turbodiesel Yaris for $16k?

Seriously? A turbodiesel Yaris is $16k? I'm glad I don't look at cars in other countries; it just upsets me most of the time. We're in the market for a small something and they want $16k for the baseline gasser Yaris around here. Not a bad car I guess, but given the choice...

Keep in mind, many other markets don't have the nanny state we do. They actually allow their "subjects" to purchase a car without ABS, SRS, ESP, etc. Tata Nano, anyone?

Funny how we (Americans) can be forbidden from purchase of such vehicles (the current Nano would cost us around $4500 in its current state, BTW, if they were sold here), yet we have no problem exploiting the people that ARE allowed to purchase them. So, our vehicles must be safe, screw the other guy. Human life is valued differently in different parts of the world though.

Just another step in the further dumbing down of society. Just wish the smart people were actually allowed to USE their smarts, and the dumb people were allowed to rid themselves from the gene pool sometimes.

It's not about valuing human life, it's about liability. And we've made cars way too complex, I think. It intrigues me that my 1990 Miata has everything I want and nothing I don't (except its one airbag) and is lighter, handles better, and as efficient as a 2012. And I can drive it on the track without worrying about disabling ABS, ESP, ASR, etc.

I don't mind crumple zones or side door beams. And I've adjusted to the idea of Airbags. But mandatory ESP, ABS, and rear-vision cameras are over the top, I think.

oilhammer said:

They had one at NAIAS in Detroit this January. 1.4L FSI engine more or less lifted from the Polo. It might sell here, but I doubt they could give them away in Europe. Not when a 1.6L TDI is available, that costs less, gets better fuel economy, and has more power.

Same reason the Prius is a slow seller there: why buy that for $25k+ when you can buy a turbodiesel Yaris for $16k?

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Actually this has been true for more than a decade (@ the very least).

We bought a 2004 Civic (12,564) over a 2004 Prius (25,000). Too bad a Civic TDI was not available in the US markets in 2004. We didn't buy the Jetta TDI A/T as there were rumblings about the 1M A/T @ that time. 10 years later the nightmare of the 1 M has more or less fully unfolded.

As dieselpony pointed out, there used to be tax rebates on the hybrids that helped push some of the sales forward. The only things with the tax rebate on them right now are the Volt and Leaf.

We looked at hybrids in 2005 and bought a Corolla for a little over $12000 instead. I don't remember the prices on the hybrids but I think the final straw was the unknown of battery life and disposal at that time. When we bought our new diesels, hybrids were not even a consideration.

kjclow said:

As dieselpony pointed out, there used to be tax rebates on the hybrids that helped push some of the sales forward. The only things with the tax rebate on them right now are the Volt and Leaf.

We looked at hybrids in 2005 and bought a Corolla for a little over $12000 instead. I don't remember the prices on the hybrids but I think the final straw was the unknown of battery life and disposal at that time. When we bought our new diesels, hybrids were not even a consideration.

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And in 2005, even the bloated American Corolla with its [relatively] giant 1.8L 1ZZ-FE engine cranking out a completely unnecessary-for-that-car 125hp or whatever is STILL hardly something I'd label as 'thirsty'. Most of the rest of the world makes do with a 1.4L gasser in the E120 Corolla (which is still in production, and is one of the most popular models on the planet with assembly going on in some 10+ countries around the world).

oilhammer said:

And in 2005, even the bloated American Corolla with its [relatively] giant 1.8L 1ZZ-FE engine cranking out a completely unnecessary-for-that-car 125hp or whatever is STILL hardly something I'd label as 'thirsty'. Most of the rest of the world makes do with a 1.4L gasser in the E120 Corolla (which is still in production, and is one of the most popular models on the planet with assembly going on in some 10+ countries around the world).

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Even in 2004 the Corolla was the literal DOG compared with the Civic. In addition they would not deal at all in the price, even as it was competitive.

oilhammer said:

Keep in mind, many other markets don't have the nanny state we do. They actually allow their "subjects" to purchase a car without ABS, SRS, ESP, etc. Tata Nano, anyone?

Funny how we (Americans) can be forbidden from purchase of such vehicles (the current Nano would cost us around $4500 in its current state, BTW, if they were sold here), yet we have no problem exploiting the people that ARE allowed to purchase them. So, our vehicles must be safe, screw the other guy. Human life is valued differently in different parts of the world though.

Just another step in the further dumbing down of society. Just wish the smart people were actually allowed to USE their smarts, and the dumb people were allowed to rid themselves from the gene pool sometimes.

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Oilhammer, agree with you. Time to thin the gene pool.. I think the greatest safety device for a car would be a Bowie Knife sticking out of the center of the steering wheel.

A Golf or Sportwagen with that 1.4L turbo gasser and a six-speed manual and no hybrid drivetrain would be killer. Unlikely, that.

With the CAFE standards creeping up, we may start seeing some more of those smaller efficient gassers before we'll see the diesels. Funny how things change on how people view the output of an engine. A ~100hp engine moving a 3400 pound Golf would seem plenty to me. Especially if it was not only affordable to buy, but affordable to operate.

I'd still like to see the Polo bluemotion. I always throught the 90 hp in my 2000 beetle was more than enough for that car in most circumstances. The current 2.0l CR diesels are overkill for the Golf, JSW, or Beetle (coming soon?). Nice to have and a blast to drive, but still more engine than is really necessary.

oilhammer said:

Keep in mind, many other markets don't have the nanny state we do. They actually allow their "subjects" to purchase a car without ABS, SRS, ESP, etc.

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It started with toilets, and now it includes shower heads and lightbulbs.

MrMopar said:

It started with toilets, and now it includes shower heads and lightbulbs.

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Funny you mention that. My brother who is a plumber has made good side money refurbishing used, "outlawed" toilets. The units I have in my house can handle some pretty awesome turds, let me tell you...

Hybrid toilets that can handle larger turds...why would you ever need to buy another?

MrMopar said:

It started with toilets, and now it includes shower heads and lightbulbs.

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The best thing you can do with the newer (high tech) shower heads is take out the flow restrictor....