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General VW Discussion This is a place for General VW topics (the company, not your vehicle). General topics about a specific vehicle should be posted in the General TDI Dicussion Forum sections for that vehicle platform. A4, A3 & B4, B5, etc.

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Old December 13th, 2016, 00:12   #16
tadawson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbovan+tdi View Post
The Dodge Ram?
Keep on mind that thier are two different engines in the Ram . . . the 'baby' (1500) trucks get the 'ecodiesel' which is from VMMotori . . . the heary duty line (2500/3500) have Cummins engines. I believe the recent flap is only centered on the VMMotori powerplant, and not Cummins . . .

- Tim
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Old December 19th, 2016, 11:51   #17
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Originally Posted by Mike_04GolfTDI View Post
Yes, they were found to have an emissions defeat device (software) much like a Volkswagen.

http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...Chrysler-Bosch

Personally, I think every single car ever made pollutes more in real world driving than they do during the EPA test. It's just common sense that they would.
I think it is just ambulance chasers.
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Old December 19th, 2016, 15:19   #18
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Originally Posted by tadawson View Post
Keep on mind that thier are two different engines in the Ram . . . the 'baby' (1500) trucks get the 'ecodiesel' which is from VMMotori . . . the heary duty line (2500/3500) have Cummins engines. I believe the recent flap is only centered on the VMMotori powerplant, and not Cummins . . .

- Tim
Just making sure it was the 3.0L Motori engine. I know the Cummin's isn't an Eco diesel, never was, never will be,
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Old December 22nd, 2016, 20:27   #19
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I've said this many times before...it should be a crime for the EPA to negotiate emissions compliance in exchange for money. ECD's are bought by manufacturer's all the time based on the idea of "safety". The truth is, the EPA keeps all ECD negotiations locked up, never to be released to keep "trade secrets" from getting out.

If that's not extortion I don't know what is...VW refused to pay for their ECD. That's all all that happened. Why did the EPA keep this locked up for a year while they tried to work a deal with VW?
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Old December 23rd, 2016, 14:18   #20
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The whole thing stinks. CAL EPA may be unable to sue when they are a sovereign nation.
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Old December 24th, 2016, 02:20   #21
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This seems like a great space to vent anger toward CARB/EPA and generally crap on scientific knowledge production. That said, the article cited explicitly points out that the restructuring isn't related to dieselgate since VW's scale has necessitated cuts long before the scandal to remain competitive with other manufacturers.

It's kinda bizarre in that I'd be surprised to find many grousing here supporting the union's position that unnecessary workers shouldn't be cut if not for the government regulation angle that is clearly swamping other, more relevant, issues.

(as an aside, the article also pointed out that VW agreed to create 9K new jobs in relation to electrifying their product lineup; markets move, people, that's how the system has always worked and will continue to work for the foreseeable future).
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Old December 24th, 2016, 20:54   #22
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Having spent my entire working career tuning VERY large burners for all types of applications I found that NO MATTER what fuel was used from #6 oil to "Digester gas" when you get the flame tuned to "optimum efficiency" you inherently made NOx. If you tuned for "minimum" CO you ALWAYS had HIGH NOx. NO WAY around it. That whole "stoichiometric" fuel/air mix doesn't give a rat's derriere about CARB or the EPA. Unless some "wise man" can figure out a way for a motor vehicle to use pure O2 for combustion we're stuck with what comes out the tailpipe.
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Old December 25th, 2016, 17:24   #23
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Coal Roller, it's hard to understand your point since exhaust treatment is able to
reduce NOx emissions. VW cheated because they chose not to meet the standards,
not because they couldn't.
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Old December 25th, 2016, 18:04   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coal Roller View Post
Having spent my entire working career tuning VERY large burners for all types of applications I found that NO MATTER what fuel was used from #6 oil to "Digester gas" when you get the flame tuned to "optimum efficiency" you inherently made NOx. If you tuned for "minimum" CO you ALWAYS had HIGH NOx. NO WAY around it. That whole "stoichiometric" fuel/air mix doesn't give a rat's derriere about CARB or the EPA. Unless some "wise man" can figure out a way for a motor vehicle to use pure O2 for combustion we're stuck with what comes out the tailpipe.
Actually, stoichometric was brought about for emissions, aka the EPA. That was the optimal ratio that the catalytic converter would work the best and reduce all the bad gas's.
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Old January 2nd, 2017, 14:30   #25
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Coal Roller, I know you are correct. But, the other side of the story is that there are ways to clean up the NOx.
I think the simplified situation is that you can have low CO, low NOx, and low cost/complexity, but you have to choose between two of the three.

The part I find most ironic is that CO2 emissions are NOT considered in these regulations. That is the greenhouse gas most related to climate change, but it is not considered a pollutant, so ULEV, SULEV, PZEV, and all that crap are not entirely honest.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 13:47   #26
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Originally Posted by rotarykid View Post
So I at least am tired of the piling on of VWAG for what they did, how is it any worse than what every other auto maker has done for years while using the truck loophole for industrial use to skirt along with violate the passenger class emissions & CAFE rules..???????.....
Every other? Name one other auto maker who brought a passenger diesel to the U.S. without urea injection, after tier 2 bin 5 took effect. The only secret was how the LNT needed to be showered with diesel in order to catalyze the necessary NOx,....and when to shut the shower off.

Those of us "paid out" are now just lingering. Soon, framing VW the victim will go uncontested.
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Old January 4th, 2017, 06:17   #27
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Non of those vehicles were in the price range what was needed.
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Old January 4th, 2017, 07:34   #28
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PLEASE......How is what VWAG did any different( no impact on actual air quality anywhere in the US)....

Compared to what auto makers have for ~3 decades now done by dishonestly using the loophole class for industrial use label to illegally sell what were in fact passenger offerings....

Passenger class offerings labeled as loophole for industrial use class to skirt, ignore and exceed set passenger class vehicle emissions limits by megatons & allowed to ignore CAFE rules which clearly applied to all passenger class offerings, for close to ~3 decades of exceeding these same emissions laws.. .???????.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by john.jackson9213 View Post
WRONG! The criminals in VW who think laws do not apply to them are responsible for the 30,000 out of work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSprdSheet View Post
Every other? Name one other auto maker who brought a passenger diesel to the U.S. without urea injection, after tier 2 bin 5 took effect. The only secret was how the LNT needed to be showered with diesel in order to catalyze the necessary NOx,....and when to shut the shower off.

Those of us "paid out" are now just lingering. Soon, framing VW the victim will go uncontested.
Loophole class Gasoline engine's passenger use intended vehicles(SUVs of all sizes,Passenger Use intended from their inception light Trucks & even vehicles like the PT Cruise & GMs similar offering, along with many other offerings from all auto makers)...

All of which for close to three decades now were sold as tuck loophole for industrial use only class vehicles to skirt, ignore & violate passenger class vehicle emissions & CAFE rules!

I have to ask, how about the last three decades of the blatant abuse of the loophole class to fill our roads with what were in actuality always intended from their inception to be gasoline powered passenger vehicles!

Passenger Vehicles in fact from the start that were pollution spewing & fuel wasting vehicles which for years claimed to be in the loophole for industrial use.

This was/still is just being ignored by the EPA and CARB, along with all of you screaming at VWAG to doing far less here with minuscule numbers these things were sold in here!

By 2004 these loophole class passenger offerings had been sold in such numbers they dropped US fleet CAFE into the single digits.

These law breakers, actual passenger class law ignoring offerings lead directly to many parts of US having many more days across the US where EPA pollution rule limits were exceeded...

Spewing actual pollution(not the BS that all are screaming about VWAG's non-existent in significant levels anywhere in the US!) Pollution spewed by 2004 in levels not seen since the 1970s due to actual impact these pollution spewing offerings put out!

The passage of emissions rules on light duty diesel auto class vehicles which no one! , but VW even tried to offer here for the last three decades+....

Rules all knew were Not Ever intended to clean up any air anywhere, but to make US emissions appear cleaner only on paper! .....!...NEVER IN THE REAL WORLD...!....

Those who wrote them and those who pushed for them,(these rules were introduced to try to balance in a fantasy world only out the over-polluting lightly regulated truck class vehicles sold as auto class offerings).....

This was done so the auto makers who have tied their future to this misuse of the emissions & CAFE "truck loophole" continuing the production/sale of these profitable minimally regulated offerings for a while longer without auto regulations being implemented on these offerings.....

This stricten'ing up of emissions on non-existent vehicles no one has offered here since model year 1985 was done so auto makers could sell the more polluting vehicles in the loophole class...

LoopHole Truck class Vehicles that were being illegally offered for passenger use. This building & selling of these designed for passenger use & sale which was a clear violation of the intent of the loophole class implementation in 1984MY.....

That is this was a illegal use of of the "Truck loophole class" for industrial use only was part of a play to use this loophole a while longer while these rules gave the appearance of cleaning up air...!...

...These facts were pointed out during the discussion time about implementing of the current over-zealous light duty auto class diesel emissions rules VWAG played around with.......

So I at least am tired of the piling on of VWAG for what they did, how is it any worse than what every other auto maker has done for years while using the heavy truck loophole for industrial use class ...

The intent of the loophole class law was ignored for years (large gasoline wasting heavy lumps that for years did not have to meet auto/passenger class emissions or CAFE rules were always intended for passenger use which violates the intent, spirit and specifically what the was written as the reason for passage of emissions & CAFE loophole for heavy & light trucks to used in industrial settings)...

This abuse of the loophole rules was the way auto makers used to skirt/violate passenger emissions & CAFE gasoline engine rules which should have applied...

Auto makers have for years building used the heavy & light truck loophole for industrial use class vehicles to skirt the law building passenger vehicles that did violate the passenger class gasoline engine emissions & CAFE rules...

This is where these ridiculous emissions rules on light duty auto diesels came from so how is this any worse that what auto makers have done for 3~ decades now...

A bargain made with the auto industry to over regulate non-existent auto class light duty diesels...Costing the auto makers nothing since none of them other than VWAG had even tried to sell an auto class diesel here since model year 1986!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FACT
The intent of Over regulating non-existent auto class diesels while continuing to allow the dishonest & illegal use of the loophole class.

The unprosecuted illegal allowed use of the loophole class specification moniker for the specific skirting of emissions & CAFE rules in effect for all passenger class offerings....

The unprosecuted illegal use of the loophole class claiming for these vehicles sold in the 100s millions(some of these offerings were sold in billions while skirting emissions & CAFE laws for passenger use) for close ~3 decades to build passenger vehicles which spewed pollution and wasted fuel well above allowed limits in place at the time for passenger class vehicles to make the air appear cleaner only on paper....

By using the truck class loophole for skirting, ignoring, exceeding emissions limits & CAFE laws/rules with their blatant using of the loophole class rules to build/sell 100s of millions of vehicles always intended to be used for passenger class offerings....

All of you screaming for VWAG's head, where is you outrage about how the truck loophole for industrial class vehicles has been used for years to produce real pollution that fills our air...?....

Auto makers have now dishonestly for decades used the loophole for industrial use class to fill our roads with passenger intended use large & small gasoline wasting pollution spewing SUVs, Passenger used light trucks, & vehicles like the PT cruiser & similar "ALL" that did not EVER meet passenger class emissions or CAFE rules..

Passenger vehicles which were wrongly allowed to be labeled as truck loophole for industrial use class to get around emissions & CAFE laws in place which were sold in the 100s of millions(some loophole class claimed models were sold in the billions) which produced, still produce extreme amounts of pollution above the passenger class rules which should have been required!

So how is what VWAG did any different( no impact on actual air quality anywhere in the US) than what auto makers have for ~3 decades done using the loophole class for industrial use label on what were in fact passenger offerings skirt, ignore and exceed set passenger class vehicle limits by megatons, for close to ~3 decades of exceeding these same emissions laws.. .???????.....

Automakers are still being allowed to sell passenger vehicles labeled as loophole class offerings skirting passenger class CAFE rules! Where is the outrage on this...????....
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Old January 4th, 2017, 10:45   #29
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I'm just throwing this out there, rotarykid:
you know that repeating the same phrases over and over makes you seem nuts, right?
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Old January 4th, 2017, 11:56   #30
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Originally Posted by Mike_04GolfTDI View Post
Yes, they were found to have an emissions defeat device (software) much like a Volkswagen.

http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...Chrysler-Bosch

Personally, I think every single car ever made pollutes more in real world driving than they do during the EPA test. It's just common sense that they would.
In the same group as the Ram, are also Mercedes and the Chevy Cruze...

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...er-doj-request
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hagens...163200629.html
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