Starter Stuck + funny electricals

1996 Passat Wagon
I just replaced my starter which got stuck (less than 1yr in service). Yesterday, after 4 days the second starter failed stuck again, ground and burnt.
I thought I had a bad starter but after the 2nd I think I have an electrical short or problem with ignition switch /ignition key cylinder.

another detail:
My ignition switch had failed 2-3 weeks ago (not even the trick of holding the key in cranck would do anymore) when the switch failed I noticed that the Key left in ignition Chime was ON whenever the door is opened even if the key is not in the ignition. I have replaced the switch but this odd behaviour continues.
I am not sure if I messed up the Ignition key cylinder (mechanical part) such that it might be changing the ignition switch state at will.
The radio also works with key off (even after the battery saver is disabled) but I don't remember if this was normal.

When the first starter failed the Instrument cluster went haywire for a while, I think the starter may have been acting like a unregulated alternator for a while until it burnt. but I haven't got a clue.

Battery is ok.

any ideas? thanks

just in case anyone might find the information useful:

somehow the new ignition switch had a short between the pins "S" and "30".
S= key in ignition Switch and 30=Hot at all times feed. therefore the radio and chime were enabled with key off. it sorted it self out as I started messing with it.
I suspect that the switch would intermitently short gnd to crank (50 I think) and engage the starter. going to change both.



' there is no "I" in individualism"...oh wait!

well... I'm just full of crap! both starter and switch changed and 4 days later another starter gone in the same manner. I found an old thread from Fastvicar where the ignition cylinder was the root cause, let's try that...and another starter. After that it goes to the dealer.. I had it!

those cars are notorious for haveing bad ignition switches.

taura said:

After that it goes to the dealer.. I had it!

Click to expand...

If you're going to get rid of it, I'd suggest you post in the "for sale" section. Where are you (or is the car) located? A B4V is a rare and wonderous vehicle.

wait a minute.."goes to the dealer for FIXING, I had it changing starters" it has 98K miles body and engine in very good shape and mechanicals taken care by me and Marty Bergel in fowlerville, I am keeping it even if I have to wire a start/stop button to by pass that ****ty switch. thanks though.
But seriously any helpful hints will be most appreciated.

Curious. Where are you getting your parts?

Paramedick -funny you should ask, because I was just thinking about that as well.
The starters I got from tdiparts.com (Peter is decente) and they are the Bosch remanufactured (in fact they towed me home free). The key cylinder (which I have not installed yet) from a local VW dealer. Now, the prime suspect, the ignition switch I don't recall (some web) but I paid $5 for it. I was just going to ask if these (at this price) are quality rejects or not genuine (it does look like the real thing-black). Might get another one from VW at $35 bucks since I am out of ideas. As far as I know that circuit is Ign SW -> in line connections->solenoid. If I have an intermitent short it would have to be a short to another 12V feed. A more common short to ground would just blow the fuse. What I cannot figure is how my clutch pedal interlock is wired since it won't start unless the clutch is pressed (now it won't start period).
Is there a relay controlled by the clutch sw?

None of my 96's had clutch interlocks, nor does my 97.
The 98 Jetta I had did. The clutch switch on that one was the one higher up. It has a normally closed contact that the pedal holds open to break the electric circuit. Pushing the pedal down allows the switch contact to close and complete the circuit.
That 98 had some .... creative relay swapping performed by the prior owner's mechanic. The incorrect relays were installed in some locations and relays in locations that should have been empty. The result was that the starter motor would spin whenever the key was ON and the clutch pedal was pressed down, such as while shifting gears or waiting at a light! It took a while to sort it out, but I had no starter failure during this brief period.
While working towards that remedy I discovered an 8 inch long section of wiring in the steering column area that had overheated and melted the insulation allowing shorts. I replaced these damaged conductors at the same time.

Sounds like a Rock Auto ignition switch.

Suggestion. Pick one up from the dealer, TDIpart, or WorldIMPEX.com. Then you know you are getting a good product. I just installed a German manufactured switch I got from IMPEX. Works great. $15, IIRC.

Thanks Guys - I am 100% positive I have clutch interlock (it is her car) which might mean some relays wired in that might be another point of failure.

I followed the circuit from the ignition switch, it goes via a couple of inline connectors to an solid state relay module packaged in the IP behind the light switch - the Module has 2 connectors (one for high current circuits and one for low current ones) with various circuits including the input from the ignition switch and the output to the starter solenoid AND also the clutch pedal switch input.
the VW part number is 357 953 233 05 0600 01 it is also marked RDW "steurgerat fur diebstahlschutz" or diebstahlschutz=theft protection - a security module.
I'll contact VW tomorrow to know moret about this module, it could be the one electronic going haywire and energizing the solenoid.
Does anyone know anything about this module?

I tried to upload a picture of the part but I'm not sure how to do it.

If anything the alarm module should prevent starter operation (by adding a second break in the circuit). It has no way of eliminating the starter switch. Don't expect the alarm control box to remedy the starter burnout situation.

That is a very good point. I was thinking that the module could short itself and provide 12v intermittently between the 2nd break in the switch and the solenoid, so this would not require the switch to fail closed. But I admit that is a bit far-fetched.

With the key in RUN I am measuring a small voltage (0.3V) in the starter solenoid circuit at the anti theft module (I disconnected the module and measured voltage at the wiring terminal). The voltage is zero if the Key is in OFF or if the IGN switch is disconnected.
Is it normal for this level of voltage to leak at the switch between the RUN and START?
I know this voltage is very low but all that is needed is enough current for the starter pinion to stick out and touch the flywheel, it does not require cranking current. If the switch allows more voltage (when hot or under vibration) this might be it.

changed the Ignition switch and ignition cyclinder, noticed that the $5 ignition switch does not have the VW symbol and part number embossed in the plastic and the PIN 50 (starter) has a different plating in the VW switch (probably a higher temperature alloy). Also put new starter and everything is cool for now (fingers crossed). Hopefully this will do the trick.

Taura,

did you ever figure out if that "leaky" small amount of voltage at the solenoid wire was ok?

my starter fried this week, and I'm replacing it... but my solenoid wire also has a tiny bit of voltage when the key is in the run position... and I'm worried about the ignition switch now.

brant

On my B4, if the starter is "on", so is the parking brake light. Brant - what kind of car do you have? Age/model? Taura, did your pb light stay on after releasing the pb?

Sorry for the delayed reply -replaced the ignition switch with one bought from the dealer, that .3v leak is there, again, when I measured I disconnected the imobilizer so if there is a sneak path it must be via switch.
The Parking Brake light came ON when the car was frying the starters, and some other anomalies in the cluster.

I could never put my finger on exactly what was wrong but I replaced the ignition cilynder and the ignition switch - so far so good (fingers crossed, knock on wood, etc...).
As mentioned before the switches sold by some web sites (US$5) are not the real thing and that could be it.
Took to the dealer and they measured all the V drops, resistances etc.. everything normal in the wiring.
Is your switch misbehaving? such as key in ignition chime w/ door open when the key is not there? don't save money on crappy parts. good luck

CORRECTION: It is not necessary to press the clutch to start the car, I am not sure if something got shorted in the imobilizer module, I guess we never tried to start without pressing it.