Worth sticking with TDI vs alltrack? MN winters

IndigoBlueWagon · Dec 13, 2019

It doesn't snow a lot here, but when it does things can get messy. And I've driven a lot in northern New England (snowboarder) and in Michigan and Wisconsin in winter, so I have practice in snow. I've never felt in the least uncomfortable in my ALH Wagon with snows on it. My son lives in Madison WI and has a lifted MKIV Golf with Firestone Winterforce tires, and he says it's unstoppable. And having owned an Audi Quattro, I think once you get rolling the difference betwen AWD and FWD isn't that great. As others have said, tires make the difference.

I'd see what you can get for your GSW. The car really isn't rare with all the buybacks out there, and you may find you're not willing to take the value hit a trade would require. The manual transmission makes it more valuable, however. And keep in mind that this is the last year for the GSW in North America, so if you want a new one the window is closing.

nicklockard · Dec 13, 2019

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/12/01/all-wheel-drive-does-not-make-you-safer/

In my opinion, the Tdi will take longer to reach temps, even with winter fronts and an up-to-snuff thermostat (aside: I wager 20% of all thermostats on the road at this moment open early and run colder than specified, so make SURE you have a new one. They generally give 5 seasons of useful life. This wax pellet design is **** and needs to die. It's really bad.)

Try the cheap things like winter fronts, fresh t-stat, pre-warming with plug-in heater, etc.

The Alltrack doesn't look to have many other real concrete advantages: similar ground clearance and similar wheelbase/track. Other than AWD (doesn't add grip), what features do you love about it?

Koloss · Dec 16, 2019

nicklockard said:
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/12/01/all-wheel-drive-does-not-make-you-safer/

In my opinion, the Tdi will take longer to reach temps, even with winter fronts and an up-to-snuff thermostat (aside: I wager 20% of all thermostats on the road at this moment open early and run colder than specified, so make SURE you have a new one. They generally give 5 seasons of useful life. This wax pellet design is **** and needs to die. It's really bad.)

Try the cheap things like winter fronts, fresh t-stat, pre-warming with plug-in heater, etc.

The Alltrack doesn't look to have many other real concrete advantages: similar ground clearance and similar wheelbase/track. Other than AWD (doesn't add grip), what features do you love about it?

I just put the pipe-insulation "winter front" on late last week, and have yet to notice a difference. It still seems to take about 10 minutes to start getting warm. I have started using the heater on max during startup and there does seem to be a luke-warm breeze on 2 setting, so I'm guessing it does have the auxiliary heater. Using that has worked well enough so far, but we also warmed up (teens to 20s) vs 10 days ago (single digits and sub zero).

The advantages of the Alltrack (or 4-motion GSW) are simply a gas engine probably fits my lifestyle more, and I'd like the rear wheels to push when needed during crap weather. The former is a bigger deal than the latter. I do more short trips than the diesel probably likes and the EGR is full-open probably 2/3 of the time on my commute (due to long warm up). I'm a bit worried about impact to the diesel/emissions components. The other benefits are better initial traction for the bad weather/winter, heated seats, faster warm-up, better rear suspension, & more access to parts. This comparison is specific to the US Market 2015 GSW TDI, though, not necessarily all TDIs...and also the weather where I live. I love the diesel, otherwise; If I could do a full delete and tune on it I'm sure I'd love it too much to consider switching back to gas. But, that's a ton of money and it removes the CPO warranty I have.

I've got snow tires, a frost-heater (not installed, since I park in a garage and have nowhere to plug in at work), and a cheapo winter-front. I'm more interested in just talking about the differences -- I'm not set to trade it in for a gasser just yet!

ProfBrown · Dec 16, 2019

Another thought for the all track over the tdi, is the new tech in the cars past 2016. Just food for thought.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

turbobrick240 · Dec 17, 2019

A 2019 GSW with the 1.4T may be worth checking out. It might even return better mpg than your tdi with the type of driving you do. I just ordered some proper 195/65r15 snow tires for my golf. Have you tried studded snows? I generally don't bother to get mine studded, but it does make a difference.

Koloss · Dec 17, 2019

turbobrick240 said:
A 2019 GSW with the 1.4T may be worth checking out. It might even return better mpg than your tdi with the type of driving you do. I just ordered some proper 195/65r15 snow tires for my golf. Have you tried studded snows? I generally don't bother to get mine studded, but it does make a difference.

Studded snows are illegal in my state =(

I agree that the MPG on that 1.4T is awfully impressive!

Lou Como · Dec 17, 2019

Get the heated seat pads that plug into your lighter adapter.

That's what I use on my old SX4.

KITEWAGON · Dec 17, 2019

I hate studded snow tires. So noisy and lousy traction except on ice. I wouldn't run studded snow tires unless I lived or traveled on a dirt/gravel road where they are coated with ice and frozen slush for most of the winter. Then I'd probably go for them so that I could claw my way through.

turbobrick240 · Dec 17, 2019

Yeah, they are loud and tear up the roads. But ice is arguably the surface on which you need extra traction the most. For me it's just not worth the extra expense when good snow tires give me what I need for traction without studs.

Mike in Anchorage · Dec 17, 2019

Been using studless snows exclusively for over a decade here in Anchorage. Quieter, better at traction than studs after the first winter wears down the studs, do not contribute to road wear. Yes, you need to drive more sanely and less aggressively, but that's a small price to pay when the surfaces are ugly.

IndigoBlueWagon · Dec 18, 2019

I wonder what the 1.8T would get for real world FE in your driving conditions. You might be unpleasantly surprised.

740GLE · Dec 18, 2019

If it's coupled with the 4Mo he won't be pleasantly surprised and can promise you that, FWD sure, especially once you factor in the delta between D2 and RUG.

Koloss · Dec 18, 2019

IndigoBlueWagon said:
I wonder what the 1.8T would get for real world FE in your driving conditions. You might be unpleasantly surprised.

I don't imagine the 4mo 1.8T would impress me at all MPG-wise. The FE of that combination is downright garbage compared to the FWD 2.0 CR combination I have now -- there's no dillusions about that! VW's 1.4T comes about equal (with cheaper fuel) but of course it doesn't come with 4mo (in a golf), it's too new (read: too expensive), and has way less torque than the diesel.

I want to have my cake and eat it too. A car that fits my lifestyle, gets through a MN winter well, is decently-efficient, and is/can be sporty. The GSW is pretty darn close to that, and winter is getting easier as I drive it more. I am a bit worried about the subzero highs we get in late Jan and early Feb, though =( . If my job had an outlet to plug in a frostheater, I'd be fine - but that's not the case.

turbobrick240 · Dec 18, 2019

I wouldn't worry too much about the car starting in subzero weather- as long as your battery is healthy. It'll start fine, the heat is another matter.

Koloss · Dec 18, 2019

turbobrick240 said:
I wouldn't worry too much about the car starting in subzero weather- as long as your battery is healthy. It'll start fine, the heat is another matter.

The heat is my main concern. There's something about freezing for most of the way home in something as new as 2015 that just bothers me. Maybe I'm just being too harsh on the comparison to my last few vehicles; they all had heated seats, heated steering wheels, 4wd and gas engines.

When I was much younger I used to keep two cars; one for winter, and a fun one for summer. My current property doesn't really support that unless I want to park my driving vehicle outside all of the time, though.

Mike in Anchorage · Dec 18, 2019

Koloss said:
I don't imagine the 4mo 1.8T would impress me at all MPG-wise. The FE of that combination is downright garbage compared to the FWD 2.0 CR combination I have now -- there's no dillusions about that! VW's 1.4T comes about equal (with cheaper fuel) but of course it doesn't come with 4mo (in a golf), it's too new (read: too expensive), and has way less torque than the diesel.

I want to have my cake and eat it too. A car that fits my lifestyle, gets through a MN winter well, is decently-efficient, and is/can be sporty. The GSW is pretty darn close to that, and winter is getting easier as I drive it more. I am a bit worried about the subzero highs we get in late Jan and early Feb, though =( . If my job had an outlet to plug in a frostheater, I'd be fine - but that's not the case.

My wife, originally from Mini-soda, drives an Aud* 1.8T Quattro. Normal in-town back & forth to work, errands, etc, gets her 22 - 24 MPG. Highway travel alone can her her up to 31 MPG. It's a 2002 model, so I expect the newer technology would improve that a bit. Quattro versus 4Motion is probably insignificant.

oilhammer · Dec 19, 2019

Mike in Anchorage said:
My wife, originally from Mini-soda, drives an Aud* 1.8T Quattro. Normal in-town back & forth to work, errands, etc, gets her 22 - 24 MPG. Highway travel alone can her her up to 31 MPG. It's a 2002 model, so I expect the newer technology would improve that a bit. Quattro versus 4Motion is probably insignificant.

"quattro" (lower case q*), and "4motion" (formerly "syncro"), do not designate any specific type of 4WD or AWD system. They just mean the car (quattro for Audi, syncro or 4Motion for Volkswagen) have some setup to drive both axles.

So the statement "quattro vs. 4Motion" makes no sense. Because you do not designate what you are actually comparing. The Torsen 2 sysem in my 2004 Passat is EXACTLY the same as the Torsen 2 system in a 2001 Audi A6, for instance (just grabbed an Audi at random). One car says quattro, one says 4Motion. There is no comparison: they are exactly the same.

The Haldex system in a 2004 Golf R32 is EXACTLY the same as the Haldex system in a 2004 Audi TT. One says quattro, one says 4Motion. They are exactly the same.

The syncro system in a 1985 Quantum wagon is COMPLETELY different than the syncro system in a 1986 Vanagon. Both say syncro. They share no parts. They work completely differently.

Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine. Now to add to the confusion, Volkswagen has decided to market some AWD cars under the Alltrack badge, further adding confusion. At least Audi has stuck with quattro.

It should also be noted that the evolution of AWD in VAG products, regardless of badging, has been an ongoing thing, with most of the cutting edge tech being offered first or exclusively in the higher end cars. It is not really even complete to just say Torsen (which is normally the longitudinal system) and Haldex (the transverse system) as there are so many variations even among those.

*lower case q because there was a specific Audi model called the Quattro, do they have kept the AWD term lower case in honor of that model. And yes, all Quattros were quattro.

But not all quattros can claim to be a Quattro.

740GLE · Dec 19, 2019

Newest A3 with quatto is the same system as the Alltrack/Golf R, Haldex Gen5. There's an electric pump that operates at clutch in the rear diff to engage or disengage the rear wheels, the drive shaft is connected to the front bevel box/front axles. I love hearing people say their A3 quattro is better than VW's 4mo, lol

On Audi's latest longitudinal AWD systems Alltroad (and I think newer A4's) they utilize another borg warner invention that Audi has dubbed Quattro Ultral, it disconnects the front bevel gear and the drive shaft in pursuit of extra MPGs, at the sacrifice of true AWD system.

IndigoBlueWagon · Dec 19, 2019

oilhammer said:
"quattro" (lower case q*), and "4motion" (formerly "syncro"), do not designate any specific type of 4WD or AWD system. They just mean the car (quattro for Audi, syncro or 4Motion for Volkswagen) have some setup to drive both axles.

Now we could have a conversation about what "Tiptronic" means.

oilhammer · Dec 19, 2019

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Now we could have a conversation about what "Tiptronic" means.

Don't get me started....

MPLSTDI · Dec 19, 2019

I have driven my 06 Jetta in MN winters for 14 of them now. I do run the foam pipe insulation on the front which does make a big difference for warm ups.
I have aftermarket heated seats which are also a really big deal. (dealer installed, I didn't want a sunroof)
Good tires go a long way as everyone has stated. But also knowing your car and how it handles in snow go a long way. I have gone through much more than those with AWD, but I have a lot of history with this car (14 winters and 214K)

I am not sure if the newer cars have this, but for mine using a low fan speed and turning the temp to 80 will engage the electric heater while it's not much heat it is there right away.

Mike in Anchorage · Dec 19, 2019

oilhammer said:
"quattro" (lower case q*), and "4motion" (formerly "syncro"), do not designate any specific type of 4WD or AWD system. They just mean the car (quattro for Audi, syncro or 4Motion for Volkswagen) have some setup to drive both axles.

So the statement "quattro vs. 4Motion" makes no sense. Because you do not designate what you are actually comparing. The Torsen 2 sysem in my 2004 Passat is EXACTLY the same as the Torsen 2 system in a 2001 Audi A6, for instance (just grabbed an Audi at random). One car says quattro, one says 4Motion. There is no comparison: they are exactly the same.

The Haldex system in a 2004 Golf R32 is EXACTLY the same as the Haldex system in a 2004 Audi TT. One says quattro, one says 4Motion. They are exactly the same.

The syncro system in a 1985 Quantum wagon is COMPLETELY different than the syncro system in a 1986 Vanagon. Both say syncro. They share no parts. They work completely differently.

Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine. Now to add to the confusion, Volkswagen has decided to market some AWD cars under the Alltrack badge, further adding confusion. At least Audi has stuck with quattro.

It should also be noted that the evolution of AWD in VAG products, regardless of badging, has been an ongoing thing, with most of the cutting edge tech being offered first or exclusively in the higher end cars. It is not really even complete to just say Torsen (which is normally the longitudinal system) and Haldex (the transverse system) as there are so many variations even among those.

*lower case q because there was a specific Audi model called the Quattro, do they have kept the AWD term lower case in honor of that model. And yes, all Quattros were quattro. But not all quattros can claim to be a Quattro.

Sheesh! TMI.

Worth sticking with TDI vs alltrack? MN winters

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