Water Methanol injection on a TDI?

At the track I've found the 225 reduces egt's 200-300f and gives a nice power bump. The 5.5L reserve is enough for a 25min session. Still had to lift on the straights due to EGT's so in goes the 375.

What kind of EGTs were you still seeing? Just curious as mine were low'ish before I installed this kit, so I'm going to have to a repeat run up my local motorway hill to see how it's changed. Mine seemed to peak out at 750 degC and never go above that. I'd only start getting worried if mine went over 900.

Jason if i were you i'd run the water/methanol mix first with the egt's you've menstioned to get a real indication of whats going on against how much power it will extract against how high egt's will be...........as it seems you may be able to run something close to a 50/50 with that nozzle plus the low egt's you already had...........just a case of trial and error adding more and more methanol .

mojogoes said:

Jason if i were you i'd run the water/methanol mix first with the egt's you've menstioned to get a real indication of whats going on against how much power it will extract against how high egt's will be...........as it seems you may be able to run something close to a 50/50 with that nozzle plus the low egt's you already had...........just a case of trial and error adding more and more methanol .

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Agreed! with the introduction of meth (and the associated reduction of h20 in the mix as a result) your egt's are sure to rise. I'd definately be tempted to add increasing amounts of meth and log temps.

If you can increase in increments of 10%, (up to 50:50), and log outside air temp & egt's, we may get some meaningful data to add to the cause!! I'll certainly be doing the same once mine's installed.

Does anyone know what bhp/lbft our 130/150PD rods will start to bend?

Right, must shut the door - just had a silver mk4 absolutely hoof it down the sidestreets of london past me & the biggest thunderstoorm is just about to arrive on my balcony!! much needed though - very humid @ the mo!!

Rich

20vK said:

Right, must shut the door - just had a silver mk4 absolutely hoof it down the sidestreets of london past me & the biggest thunderstoorm is just about to arrive on my balcony!! much needed though - very humid @ the mo!!

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Man, blow those storms down to the south west! I'm sat here, sweating at nearly 11pm, window wide open. Nothing is moving outside. Almost tempted to go out in the car just to cool down, driving at 100 with the windows down!

Will the methanol just be a pure form of fuel in the combustion process as I already have a lot of fuel on tap should it been needed. Just want to convert as much of it to power as is possible.

Well looks like the storm missed me by about half a mile - gutted, hot and sweaty! Luckily I bought a fan today, so suffering a bit less than I would be otherwise. Cold bottle of Sauvignon blanc is also helping

I know that compared to gas, meth has a relatively higher octane level - so is less likely to promote knocking. I "think" with diesel (from memory) it helps reduce smoke, but I could well be wrong on that one. Would make sense, as the cylinder mix has a diluted concentration of diesel. I'm fairly sure it will absorb a little heat very quickly, as meth has a low boiling point. A bit like chuicking a bucket of liquid oxygen into a fire, I guess. Quick heat reduction, followed by rapid explosion. Water then helps control the temps......best read this thread again, methinks!!!

If we can get it for less than diesel/litre, it's probably worth chucking in, just to save some pennies, (or cents, if you're on the other side of the pond)!!

Do you reckon you can get past 300bhp on those nozzles alone, & when are you going to upgrade rods??? My nozzles have been sent off for testing.........thanks for the link Jason

1600f (871c). A lift of the go pedal would bring them to 1300-1400 (725ish c) pretty quickly. Don't think the turbo liked it too much as now it is making a nasty whistle building boost. Gotta get the MKII reliable and start pulling things apart.

devonutopia said:

What kind of EGTs were you still seeing? Just curious as mine were low'ish before I installed this kit, so I'm going to have to a repeat run up my local motorway hill to see how it's changed. Mine seemed to peak out at 750 degC and never go above that. I'd only start getting worried if mine went over 900.

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DbLog said:

1600f (871c). A lift of the go pedal would bring them to 1300-1400 (725ish c) pretty quickly. Don't think the turbo liked it too much as now it is making a nasty whistle building boost. Gotta get the MKII reliable and start pulling things apart.

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1600F Your begging for turbo failure or worse engine failure running EGT's that high, You need a larger nozzle for your kit, You should be able substain 1300F with proper nozzle size and set up even at WOT. You also might want to try a higher water mix like 80/20 or 90/10 for maximum cooling. Any power you gain with extra methanol is lost with the high EGT's.

I would highly suggest a second pre-turbo nozzle 2gph or so a larger nozzle than what you have installed in your current location.

Anouther thing is you might want to consider getting a Downpipe. But you can bet your turbo is going to take a dirt nap with 1600F EGT's and road racing.

Thanks for the help. I really only see temps like this at the track. Others running the stock vnt-15 have had no problems touching 1500-1600f at the track lap after lap for a few summers now. If my larger turbo can't handle it I need to run something different. I am happy with the cars performance (other than egt's) and really don't want to switch.

Most water I tried with the 225 was 70/30ish. It was the lowest concentration I brought. Good call on more water. Not sure I want to install a preturbo nozzle until someone does some real testing with that setup. Sounds like a really good idea but could end up really really bad.

Car's running a 3" back system and has most of the breathing mods. Just installed the 375 nozzle too, have yet to track the car with this nozzle. Honestly I can't see how egt's could remain below 1300f unless I drive like a ***** or spend some major $$. Oh wait...I already did.

dvldoc said:

1600F Your begging for turbo failure or worse engine failure running EGT's that high, You need a larger nozzle for your kit, You should be able substain 1300F with proper nozzle size and set up even at WOT. You also might want to try a higher water mix like 80/20 or 90/10 for maximum cooling. Any power you gain with extra methanol is lost with the high EGT's.

I would highly suggest a second pre-turbo nozzle 2gph or so a larger nozzle than what you have installed in your current location.

Anouther thing is you might want to consider getting a Downpipe. But you can bet your turbo is going to take a dirt nap with 1600F EGT's and road racing.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYnRDlTn-Lo

Not a TDI but still a nice VW VR6 with alcohol injection.

So how well does water/meth work on NA cars? Is it as effective as with diesels?

It would probably help slightly, more so on vehicles running a high compression ratio to help combat pre-ignition detonation.

You probably wouldn't see the kind of power increases you would on a boosted vehicle though as the volume of air going into the motor would be less.

can you increase timing on the NA car? Then yes, you would probably see a bit of a gain on an NA if you could increase the timing.

N/A gains can be as much as 15hp if you can increase timing so only get around 5hp. Depends on the vehicle. If your High compression and need premium fuel the kit will subsitute that and reduce the intake temps but it will still run close to the same power level, but you will be able to max out your timing. Every degree of timing = about 2hp to 3hp.

Heres a example, of a small displacment high compression 4cly engine with 50/50 ethanol with a D01 (1gph) nozzle. Nothing to jump for joy about but a improvement never the less plus it keeps engine temps constant power smooth since he road races the car.

DVLDOC, thanks for your reply to my PM

What sort of psi should I start injecting on a 300bhp setup (PD engine, GT25 turbo), with boost @ say 28psi and also, the start WI start psi on the same engine, but running, say 35 - 38psi? Would around 15psi and 18psi sound about right?

How about with 50:50 h20:meth and 100% h20? Does that change things?

Cheers,

Rich

20vK said:

DVLDOC, thanks for your reply to my PM

What sort of psi should I start injecting on a 300bhp setup (PD engine, GT25 turbo), with boost @ say 28psi and also, the start WI start psi on the same engine, but running, say 35 - 38psi? Would around 15psi and 18psi sound about right?

How about with 50:50 h20:meth and 100% h20? Does that change things?

Cheers,

Rich

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I would start at about 12psi start point and full at 24psi. I would be more into the cooling on that set up. I would try out 70/30 for the mix. Your EGT's are what you need to monitor to figure out what is working best for you as well as knock and if your loosing any timing.

Ever here methanol corrodes aluminum, Well how much does it actually corrode and what does the quality of the aluminum have to be. So far I have never see it on any vehicle.

So since I am leaving I finally pulled out my 92 Thunderbirds hacked up intercooler which was left after my poor first attemp to weld and make the popular doublestake intercooler. Pretty much destroyed a good used intercooler but oh well.

This has been sitting in a plastic bin for a good 2 months now in 100% methanol and looks the same as the day I put it in there, No noticible corrossion what so ever. Only the part at the welded dived was submerged to show a controll. So this begs to ask the question just what grade of alumimum will actually corrode.

I have yet to see one report of any corrosion or photos of it even if the person had had pooling from there system triggering on ignition on 5 volt spikes using progressive controllers.

This is a extream example but a good one, If a 16 year old intercooler can hold up with 100% saturation after 60 days hmmm? It is actually cleaner than when I put it in. Most of the crap between the vans also came out after sitting in the meth that long.



This is it before it was hacked to hell.



Got a old intercooler sitting around feel free to try the same test and report your results.

try the same test w/ 50/50 methanol- water, might come out different...

DPM said:

try the same test w/ 50/50 methanol- water, might come out different...

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Any technical reason why? Just wondering I used a aluminum 8qt tank in my Grand prix GTP for 3 years, running washer fluid which is 40% methanol, Never had a bit of corrosion. Replaced it with one of our 6 gallon tanks just for less refills.

I could not say I would know why the two combined would cause any greater corrosion to the fins on a intercooler or radiator core. My tank shows zero signs of having any oxidized aluminum commonly seen on aluminum parts exposed to water, The methanol might play a role in that since it is [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Times New Roman][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Times New Roman]non-oxidizing[/FONT][/FONT]. But I'm no chemist so who knows. But the tank is not oxidized on the inside what so ever.

This was the kind of tank use for cart racing I have had for years. Still have the thing besides from ripping off the level tube it's perfect on the inside. besides from a little residue from years of washer fluid of different brands some which do have detergents in them. Just a note your not supposed to store 100% methanol in aluminum containers.

Might be a different story in pure water and that's one of the reasons you have ethylene glycol in radiator fluid to prevent that. but then again were only talking about the very worse case of total and complete long term submersion. Which is not a issue in a water injection system install correctly.

DPM said:

try the same test w/ 50/50 methanol- water, might come out different...

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unlikely since winter washer fluid is 40% methanol- wouldn't damage to exterior aluminum pieces on vehicles be common knowledge by now?

what unpainted aluminium pieces would they be?

wiper arms and trim on semis, trim on older cars

Water/Methanol Injection kits for Gas... implications for Diesel?

Hi guys, just wondering if anyone has attempted to install a water injection system in their TDI to cool the intake air? I know its one of 'the' things to do with turbo gas cars now to run higher boost so I figured something similar must be possible with the TDI's? For the cost it seems to yield quite the horsepower gain in the gas engines. Thoughts? If anyone has done this or retrofitted a gas kit can you post up some links?

Short Answer and Correct Answer

Short answer: Yes.

Correct answer: Search is your friend. Click search; click advanced search; click 'search by key word' on the left side of the page; type in 'water injection' or similar words of your choice; click the drop down for 'search titles only'; click the 'search now' button at the bottom of the page; sit back and enjoy the overload.

I use a Snow Performance kit. Not going to bother going into detail here but if you search "methanol" it's bound to bring up something.

yeah its pretty much been discussed as much as possible...there are couple long threads that will make your brain hurt.

devonutopia said:

I use a Snow Performance kit. Not going to bother going into detail here but if you search "methanol" it's bound to bring up something.

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Jason what do you feel the methanol snow performance kit has given you in terms of extra power reduced smoke etc etc...........if you've stated i appoligise as i must have mist it.

mojogoes said:

i must have mist it.

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lol
pun intended?

Who me!!^^

mojogoes said:

Jason what do you feel the methanol snow performance kit has given you in terms of extra power reduced smoke etc etc...........if you've stated i appoligise as i must have mist it.

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Unsure but it feels good. Dyno'ing in Portsmouth on 7th Feb where I hope to do a run with it turned off, then the last 2 runs with it flicked on. For comparison's sake.