camplate vp DE657

mk1-83

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Location
Holland
TDI
LUPO 1.9 tdi 300+ hp
I got a 12mm vw lt 2.8 tdi fuelpump
when I remove the head I found a DE657 camplate inside.

When I look at the slope angle It can be have higher lift than the DE110.

The stock KF- setting was 9.6 mm ( stock settings tdi 8.6mm) so It have more tension on the camplate to get all the fuel on top rpm's.

Maybe some one have tested the DE657 camplate to a DE143
 

hatemi

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Location
Finland
TDI
Audi A6 4F 3.0TDI
That LT camplate should be even more aggressive than the DE143 from 11mm pump.
 

mk1-83

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Location
Holland
TDI
LUPO 1.9 tdi 300+ hp
Hatemi you have expertise whit this camplate? And why a slow reving 2.8 L have a more aggresive camplate.. should the 12mm Pump survive with These camplate at 5500 rpm
 

loudspl

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Location
Osakis, Minnesota
TDI
02 ASV w/ 02J
2.8L LT van is rated at 3500rpm

Might not survive @ 5500+..

Get the 13.5/14mm pumphead to survive. That would be aggressive :)
 

JFettig

Vendor
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Location
Blaine, MN
TDI
B5 Passat, 2010 Jetta
Just put taller gearing in your TDI with a stout bottom end and proper sized compounds, tune in a 3800rpm red line, could be fun!
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Sorry to piggyback on this thread, I have an ALH 11mm pump with a broken case, and a working 10mm pump from an AHU/1Z (currently installed in the car).

Does anyone know if the camplate and the pump head are a direct swap - are the housings the same size on the VE series pumps?

IE is it possible to take the Camplate and the pump head/plunger from the 11mm ALH pump and swap them into the 1Z pump?
 

mk1-83

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Location
Holland
TDI
LUPO 1.9 tdi 300+ hp
Oke its beter to use the DE110 camplate with the 12mm can it deliver fuel for 250 bhp?
 

v8 coupe

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Location
bloomington, mn
TDI
09 rabbit 2.5L Gas
there is a 4mm camplate out there! Most aggressive unit out there. Made from high quality material and with DLC'd parts should be fine for 5k!
 

loudspl

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Location
Osakis, Minnesota
TDI
02 ASV w/ 02J
there is a 4mm camplate out there! Most aggressive unit out there. Made from high quality material and with DLC'd parts should be fine for 5k!
Mate 13.5/14mm pumphead and big lift camplate maybe no need for inline pump or CR conversion :D


Yes de143 its better but maybe not needed to make 250 HP
Maybe not needed but if you can get it cheap go for it. Tune out excess in software and hammer mod if needed. Room to grow.. :)
 

v8 coupe

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Location
bloomington, mn
TDI
09 rabbit 2.5L Gas
The trick on these pumps is 2 fold. as it is a staged pump!

1)inertia is the killer of the 12mm and 14mm. 2) the factory limited the front rotary vane pump. It can only flow a fixed volume of fuel. No matter how much piston and cam plate mods you do it is a fundamental limit.

4mm cam plates do exist! They are not cheap, ~400ea. From the research I have done the 11mm pump is 3.3mm and the 10mm is ~3.1mm.

Using that
a stock 10mm pump flows .243cc/rev
a stock 11mm pump flows .314cc/rev
a 12mm/10mm combo flows .351cc/rev
a 12mm/11mm combo flows .373cc/rev
a 10mm/4mm camplate flows .314cc/rev
a 11mm/4mm camplate flows .380cc/rev

See that you can see a 11mm head with a 4mm cam plate can actually out flow the more aggressive 12mm/11mm combo. Now the other advantage of this combo is the weight of the plunger!

The 12mm plunger is heavy and the bigger the mass the more issue, plus it has more surface area which is more friction!

More friction is more heat, which can only be cooled with fuel. The issue that keeps coming up is the piston starving of fuel! This will not change with any piston or camplate. The higher the RPM the more fuel demand the more the primary issue becomes apparent.

The thing that will always limit the pump is the supply pump. It's a fixed rate vane pump, lift pumps help, but you can't really shove much more fuel in there. I've been playing with 6bt parts to see if I can find something that drops in and will supply more fuel. This would mean more fuel flowing through the entire pump, meaning cooler fuel, and less high RPM starvation!
 

Yucca

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Location
Finland
TDI
ALH 388bhp, Polo 6R 2.0TDI CR GTC1752VZ
I am going to try 14mm head with DE015 camplate(2.9mm lift). Camplate is from old 1z/ahu pump.
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
The trick on these pumps is 2 fold. as it is a staged pump!

1)inertia is the killer of the 12mm and 14mm. 2) the factory limited the front rotary vane pump. It can only flow a fixed volume of fuel. No matter how much piston and cam plate mods you do it is a fundamental limit.

4mm cam plates do exist! They are not cheap, ~400ea. From the research I have done the 11mm pump is 3.3mm and the 10mm is ~3.1mm.

Using that
a stock 10mm pump flows .243cc/rev
a stock 11mm pump flows .314cc/rev
a 12mm/10mm combo flows .351cc/rev
a 12mm/11mm combo flows .373cc/rev
a 10mm/4mm camplate flows .314cc/rev
a 11mm/4mm camplate flows .380cc/rev

See that you can see a 11mm head with a 4mm cam plate can actually out flow the more aggressive 12mm/11mm combo. Now the other advantage of this combo is the weight of the plunger!

The 12mm plunger is heavy and the bigger the mass the more issue, plus it has more surface area which is more friction!

More friction is more heat, which can only be cooled with fuel. The issue that keeps coming up is the piston starving of fuel! This will not change with any piston or camplate. The higher the RPM the more fuel demand the more the primary issue becomes apparent.

The thing that will always limit the pump is the supply pump. It's a fixed rate vane pump, lift pumps help, but you can't really shove much more fuel in there. I've been playing with 6bt parts to see if I can find something that drops in and will supply more fuel. This would mean more fuel flowing through the entire pump, meaning cooler fuel, and less high RPM starvation!

If you look at the dyno of my car, you see hp drop off after 4500rpm for no reason, I was thinking if it would the vane pump, the first thing that would happen would be the timing getting retarded because of the dropping case pressure. but in my case, timing tracks easily with 8x% N108 duty. so i think maybe it is the head itself not flowing enough, or maybe it is starting to float.. who knows
 

loudspl

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Location
Osakis, Minnesota
TDI
02 ASV w/ 02J
Is it a fuel cooler a must have to run a 12mm
I still run the OEM one under the body. A front or side mount might be a good idea to keep advance in warm seasons but for now probably not necessary..


I wonder how the 12mm head would do with even stiffer springs and 4mm lift camplate :)
Is there any way to predict max safe rpm for a given combination without having the pump on a bench?
 

NoJoke

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2003
My pump is on its way to get repaired what is the number for the 4mm? I'll give it a shot!
 

v8 coupe

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Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Location
bloomington, mn
TDI
09 rabbit 2.5L Gas
4mm is not a stock bosch part It's a custom made part!

If my math is correct the vane pump is ~.300cc in displacement. If you have a decent lift pump you might be able to maintain case pressure, but not flow. I have not confirmed this yet, but from some digging i think i have found a vane pump that "should" be a replacement. If you can pump more fuel threw the pump it might require some mods to the fueling system. Getting high RPM fueling might be the key to unlocking the 300WHP mark in the 8v. I'd love to get a weight on a 11mm and 12mm head. I only have a 10mm that I've torn apart. Stiffer springs and DLC coatings might be able to help.
 

loudspl

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Location
Osakis, Minnesota
TDI
02 ASV w/ 02J
We'll see how it turns out:D the 4mm cam
+1


I guess even a modded VP44 wouldn't work well either. What do the cummins guys get out of them? 4500rpm max?
Seems like getting that to work with ECU would be easier than CR adaptation but you're really limited by rpm..
 

v8 coupe

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Location
bloomington, mn
TDI
09 rabbit 2.5L Gas
I'm trying to find some place to DLC coat the plate and rollers. Reduce the friction and harden the parts might help!

The vane pump is something I'm currently working on as I am looking to build a high performance pump that can support fueling needs to 6k on compounds. Also looking at ways to port the openings in the pump body itself to reduce cavitation. Also will be working with several companies to see if a little more timing can be got similar to pin mods in the mechanical pumps.
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
def not needed to get more timing imho..

also delete vane pump and use a power steering pump =)
 

v8 coupe

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Location
bloomington, mn
TDI
09 rabbit 2.5L Gas
Or Aeromotive mechanical fuel pump.
Only issue with that is the pump housings has drain back holes. I'm looking at ways to block of these areas and re plumbing the pump for a dedicated external large capacity pump. Something like a 600HP street car would have with 2 pumps sitting in a surge tank tucked up somewhere.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
My stock 10mm ALH vane pump puts out somewhere in the range of 1000 cc/min at idle without a lift pump.

1000 cc/min at 450 pump rev/min = ~2.2 cc/rev

The vane pump itself is not the limitation of the injection pump in my opinion.
 

mk1-83

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Location
Holland
TDI
LUPO 1.9 tdi 300+ hp
a local bosch diesel service centrum..

@ fix_until_broke a pd liftpump feeds at 2000cc/m

Looks like the vane pump + liftpump feeds a lot of fuel
 
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