CR engine HPFP analysis

vwxyzero

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Jul 12, 2004
Location
Los Angeles, CA
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'96 Passat Sedan, '96 TDI Passat Wagon, & Jetta Sedan, '83 Turbodiesel (IDI)
I've just read this entire thread. I know some members will wonder why I'm interested in this topic since I still drive B4's. So let's get that out of the way first: My wife is looking at the new Audi A3 TDI, and two friends of mine who are not on this form own 2010 TDI's; one is an Audi A3 and the other is a Jetta SW. Both of my friends currently live close to a station in Marina Del Ray, CA that sells B5 and they both consistently drive on B5 whenever possible and neither one of them has had any problems. Yet. I can get back to you with milage stats if you like, but I can't do it now, both friends just happen to be out of town for the weekend.

First: Does the Audi A3 have the exact same IP that is in question in this thread? (I would assume that they do, but assumptions can be dangerous.)

If my wife actually buys the A3 TDI with in the next year she will also have 24 hour access to B5 though either the station mentioned above or from the Co-op I belong to that distributes commercially made ASTM spec. B99 to it's members. So I'm not particularly concerned about her running into lubrication problems in the IP.

Also after reading this thread, I think I would insist on an after-market in-line water separator should my wife actually make the TDI commitment. So, there is also a question here, and maybe someone can answer it: Is anyone currently using an after-market in-line water separator? Would VW or Audi approve of this addition or would it void the warranty? Is anyone else considering this, or has anyone already installed one on the new CR's?

I am also concerned about the design of the IP. From a design perspective, I agree, it looks flawed. The flaw as I see it, is in the design of the roller as mentioned before. However I have a slightly different take on the issue: There is nothing inherently wrong with the idea of a roller on a cam. The problem is that without any way to stabilize the the IP's piston from rotating, a single roller, no mater the diameter is going to wobble. Not even a spring from hell will ever keep that piston on a straight path through it's cylinder. I know I'm going to hear s**t about this because I don't work on them; but, contrary to the opinion of Oilhammer (who I do respect); if any modifications could be made to to the IP's piston it would be much better to add an additional roller in parallel. The Big question here; is it possible to redesign just the roller piston? Where am I coming from on this since I have no experience with rebuilding IP's? Racing roller cams. Yeah, I know we are talking Apples and Oranges here, but based on ancient experience building racing engines, I do understand the issue.
 
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JSWTDIPilot

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Weschester, NY
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2010 JSW TDI
It is, however, known to cause some seals to shrink (Source: Chevron paper) and may cause fuel pump failures in Volkswagen TDI engines used in pre-2009 models. TDI engines from 2009 and on are designed to use ULSD exclusively; biodiesel blends are reported to prevent that failure (Source: HRCCC.org Biodiesel Best Management Practices).
The concern here with the HPFP is not with Biodiesel since it has been shown that BD has superior lubricity compared to ULSD. Note the lubricity study above. There are issues though with BD higher than B20 which can cause other problems such as cylinder blow-by filling the oil pan, oil-dillution, and DPF failure. See Thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=224644&highlight=b100

I think the main question here, and one which you pointed out, is the US standard of ULSD and their quality control from refiners to the pumps leaving our CR TDI with improper HPFP lubrication. The standard for ULSD is 520 microns, <460 microns is ideal for long term protection.

Our CR HPFP is lubricated with fuel while past HPFPs have been oil lubricated. Diesel lubricity is now a main component of quality for our CRs.

What we should look at are the HFRR tests on fuel samples coming from HPFP failures... any takers?
 

thanatos

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HRM, Nova Scotia Canada
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2011 Golf Sportwagen TDI
First: Does the Audi A3 have the exact same IP that is in question in this thread? (I would assume that they do, but assumptions can be dangerous.)
As far as I know (as I'm coming from Audi to VW, and considered the A3 TDI myself but couldn't justify the cost difference for an Audi without quattro) the CR TDI motor in the A3 is identical to that in the VW.
 

Derrel H Green

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Murrieta, California
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An '05 MBZ E-320 CDI (W-211) replaced the '10 TDI JSW
There are differences . .

As far as I know (as I'm coming from Audi to VW, and considered the A3 TDI myself
but couldn't justify the cost difference for an Audi without quattro) the CR TDI
motor in the A3 is identical to that in the VW.
:)

. . well some minor differences.
The slight differences in the fuel filters depending on which vehicle it is and the year.

Also,

The 2009 and 2010 Audi A3 TDIs supposedly had the same motor as the 2009 TDI VWs, that
being the CBEA. The 2010 and later VW TDIs use the CJAA which has, among other things,
a slightly larger oil pan that holds approximately 4.3 liters vs only 4.0 liters for the
earlier CBEA. I do not know what motor the 2011 Audi A3 has.

:D

D
 

3waygeek

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Duluth GA
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2010 Audi A3 2.0 TDI
:)
The 2009 and 2010 Audi A3 TDIs supposedly had the same motor as the 2009 TDI VWs, that
being the CBEA.
D
There are no US 2009 A3 TDIs -- it was introduced in the 2010 model year. The first ones started arriving in local dealerships in the first part of Nov 09. I ordered mine in October & took delivery in February.
 

Derrel H Green

Top Post Dawg
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Murrieta, California
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An '05 MBZ E-320 CDI (W-211) replaced the '10 TDI JSW
True Enough, but . .

:)

. . I was quoting from a website that surely knows more about our cars than we do.
It was evidently speaking of the Audi A3 TDIs World-Wide.

You have a 2010 Audi A3 TDI that has the CBEA motor
which is exactly the same as any 2009 VW TDI.
Four (4) liter oil capacity, correct? :confused:

:D

D
 

glennco

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Location
WI
TDI
2010 JSW DSG
I have a quick question. After purchasing my TDI I saw all the threads on this site related to the HPFP failures which definitely cause some concern. Then I looked on the NHTSA website and found very few complaints related to fuels system issues on 09-10 TDI that required fuel system replacements.

Have there really been this few issues, or are people just not reporting them. If so, why not? If there is an issue, people need to report it to get it on the ODI's radar.
 

Lightflyer1

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Round Rock, Texas
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2015 Beetle tdi dsg
No one really know how many/few there have been. More than reported to NHTSA. It is requested of those that report here to go there and report as well.
 

Pcar993

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Mar 14, 2004
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Southern CA
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Golf 2000 White
Oilhammer, awesome job in investigating this issue. I was just about to buy a 2010 salvaged Golf TDI but decided not to since i wont have warrenty if and when the fuel system fails. Hope you can find a solution.
 

woofie2

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Feb 11, 2004
Location
Republic of Southern Illinois
TDI
Former TDI owner
Question-

Would a communication error or a problem with the ECU/ECM reading the fuel pressures coming out from the HPFP possibly cause failure of the HPFP, by the pump trying to make too much pressure?

(my dealer said my ECM is potentially reading incorrectly. which is causing my stumbling and stalling problems)
 

cocoabeach

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Sep 12, 2010
Location
Cocoa Beach, FL
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2003 Excursion 6.0 PSD
Roller is not turning

It looks to me like the piston roller is not turning, and why would it? The roller has about 180 degrees of contact with the piston and maybe 1 degree with the cam, the friction from cam contact could not possibly overcome the friction between the piston and roller. The grind marks on the cam are perpendicular to surface travel, while the roller is just impregnated with debris (ie, not much rotation).

I must thank the original poster, because I was just about to sign on the line for a new 2010 Sportwagen. I'm in love with the car, but I'm not going to buy one until they redesign that pump.:eek: A cam follower with a real roller bearing would last forever. :cool:

The test drive was a great ride though.:D
 

JSWTDIPilot

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Weschester, NY
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2010 JSW TDI
Cocoabeach - the incident rate of HPFP failures are well below 1%. Of course you are going to see a lot of people talking about these failures on a TDI enthusiest website because we enjoy talking about them and a problem is a problem. Don't let this discourage you from buying a TDI or a JSW for that matter.

Treat your TDI right and you won't have a problem. I always fuel with higher grade diesel with better lubricity. I see better MPGs also! This is one way that you could lessen your very slight chance of a HPFP issue.

Also, do any search on any vehicle and you'll find somebody complaining up a storm about one thing or another.

I love my TDI and I'll never exchange it or sell till I run it into the ground 200k+ miles down the road.
 

tdiatlast

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Location
Fort Worth, Texas
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2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
Premium diesel generally has higher lubricity from the refinement process. I'd love to get B5 around the NYC area, but there isn't any within a 200 mile radius.
I'm confused. I thought as cetane numbers go up, lubricity goes down.

Are you saying that premium diesels, with higher cetane numbers, also have increased levels of lubrication additives?

There's bio near me (Pentagon), but the pump clearly states "5-20% bio". So, I'll continue with my OptiLube XPD.
 

JSWTDIPilot

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Weschester, NY
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2010 JSW TDI
I did a quick search but could not find the exact document that showed me numbers between lubricity of regular diesel and premium diesel but I did find this document from Chevron explaining premium diesel.

"Conversely, premium diesel is typically related to varying multiple fuel properties. Some of the more commonly modified fuel properties are: cetane number, low-temperature operability, stability, lubricity, detergency, and heating value." Pg. 50

Source: http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/documents/Diesel_Fuel_Tech_Review.pdf

I did a quick scan of the document for this info, I'll be reading it a little more in the coming hours.
 

mysql

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United States
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Jetta wagon
long story short, premium diesel has no real world definition and so it means whatever they tell you it means.
 

JSWTDIPilot

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long story short, premium diesel has no real world definition and so it means whatever they tell you it means.
You are correct, there is NO standard for premium diesel. Though I do not mind paying the extra 10-15 cents for better fuel economy through a higher cetane rating. As a side bonus, there is more than likely better lubricity and other additions that are just as good as a bottle of additive.

I still haven't found the "right" additive so I'll stick with fueling up this way.
 

sflier

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Ridgefield, CT
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2010 Golf TDI, 2013 Toareg TDI LUX
long story short, premium diesel has no real world definition and so it means whatever they tell you it means.
X2. Check my post regarding Shell's response to my inquiry about preimium deisel. They wrote that they don't sell a premium diesel in the US and that any sign on a Shell pump that states premium diesel is just dispensing their regular diesel product. In other words, premium diesel is just a marketing term.
 

jbright

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Indianapolis
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2009 Jetta DSG
You are correct, there is NO standard for premium diesel. Though I do not mind paying the extra 10-15 cents for better fuel economy through a higher cetane rating. As a side bonus, there is more than likely better lubricity and other additions that are just as good as a bottle of additive.

I still haven't found the "right" additive so I'll stick with fueling up this way.
Here in Indiana we have a local company that sells "premium" diesel and posts a spec sheet. They drill locally, refine locally, and have their own distribution system (I didn't know the Midwest had oil reserves but we do). This is all I use in my car now. Check out this link. As far as other oil companies go, I haven't seen anything to indicate their premium product is any different that the regular diesel and until they prove it I won't buy it unless I have to.

http://www.countrymark.com/pdr.cfm
 

JSWTDIPilot

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2010 JSW TDI
I just called someone out for making an outrageous statement that they have no fact to back up.

I want to know, if he can tell me the cause for the failures and how to 'treat it right' to avoid a failure, I'll trade my Jetta in on a wagon.
Yes, I did make a far reaching statement which went a little further than I anticipated. Though due to what I read about lubricity with the BOSCH presentation on US standard diesel, I chose to go with premium diesel. From what I've read, the fuel does have better lubricity than regular.

My statement was vague in the sense that I didn't state how to treat I thought to treat the vehicle. I meant to say, "If you watch what you put into your CR TDI, and you should not have a problem." Lubricity seems to be the issue and that is my belief. Argue as you may.

I was wrong to make a far reaching and cover all statement, but I do believe that with the problem at hand, be careful what you put into your fuel tank.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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ARIZONA
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Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
I did a quick search but could not find the exact document that showed me numbers between lubricity of regular diesel and premium diesel but I did find this document from Chevron explaining premium diesel.

"Conversely, premium diesel is typically related to varying multiple fuel properties. Some of the more commonly modified fuel properties are: cetane number, low-temperature operability, stability, lubricity, detergency, and heating value." Pg. 50

Source: http://www.chevron.com/products/prod...ech_Review.pdf

I did a quick scan of the document for this info, I'll be reading it a little more in the coming hours..
JSWTDIPilot said:
You are correct, there is NO standard for premium diesel. Though I do not mind paying the extra 10-15 cents for better fuel economy through a higher cetane rating. As a side bonus, there is more than likely better lubricity and other additions that are just as good as a bottle of additive.

I still haven't found the "right" additive so I'll stick with fueling up this way.
Do you have any evidence that paying 10-15 cents more for "higher cetane" provides better fuel economy to the extent that the additonal cost of the higher cetane fuel offsets the 10 - 15 cent additional cost. I think you will find that the btu content of the fuel is the primary determinant of fuel economy not cetane. I personally have not seen any difference in fuel economy by increasing cetane levels. Around here 10 cents is about a 3.5% premium to pay.

Also, I would hope that the premium diesel at 10-15 cents per gallon more would have a lubricity level of 460 or less. If not then, I don't see any benefit in buying premium diesel. For me, to increase lubricity it's actually cheaper to add one quart of biodiesel per fillup than buy premium diesel since B99 currently runs 14 cents per gallon less than ULSD.

All Chevron stations around here are about 3-5 cents per gallon higher than BP, Shell, and the supermarket/convienence store chains and are not labeled premium diesel.
 
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Tms0425

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Fort Wayne IN
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Sold - 2010 JSW TDI DSG
Here in Indiana we have a local company that sells "premium" diesel and posts a spec sheet. They drill locally, refine locally, and have their own distribution system (I didn't know the Midwest had oil reserves but we do). This is all I use in my car now. Check out this link. As far as other oil companies go, I haven't seen anything to indicate their premium product is any different that the regular diesel and until they prove it I won't buy it unless I have to.

http://www.countrymark.com/pdr.cfm
Thanks for this. I just realized we have these in the northern part of the state too (Ft. Wayne, Angola, Fremont, Warsaw), so I'm going to give it a try. Tom
 
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