Installing camshafts on CR TDI

Best of luck to you, Travis. I hope you can find a way to make 400hp survivable. Then I'd want to know what the 25, 50 and 100km engine looks like.

Rub87, I never saw the cam. I know who made it, and I saw another similar cam, which was a modified OEM cam. Within the stock cam lobe I don't think it could have been made to work well. The original owner pulled them before shipping the cylinder head. The valve damage was limited to the ends of the valves from non-rotation. I should look the pics up again. What I do know, if the exhaust side was damaged and the intake was completely normal. Since I expect both cams would have been similar in height, I can't imagine the lift was so extreme to cause spring bind.

I think making an engine survive under some extreme runs is the challenge. There are engines I have destroyed in single outings; performance, ET's and trap speed was the only goal. Tear them apart at the end of each run... that was the norm. I don't want that for my road 'fun car'.

The intent we prefer to design now, is survivability within the confines of the engine. After all, the original goal of these vehicles was extreme long life, with high fuel economy. Sure, you can push the power, but when that happens, not many talk about the head lift, warp, burned pistons, bent rods and other toasted internals, when they happen.

It's a different kind of gambling. Talk about the success, but avoid the talk of failures. That you are doing differently, Travis. Sorry to hear of your issues. I guess I've walked away with my pockets emptied enough that now, I like an engine to stay together for many years and many, many miles before I have to do any maintenance to them.

40 1/4 mile pulls and your engine might have run 10 minutes. I want to know how it acts when it's gone 10,000 hours. I believe in the stock state, the engine is capable of that kind of mileage.

The head I saw was claimed to only have 6,000km. It was quickly turned into junk. I only know what I have seen and it's not good.

Hi Frank, that is very true. As you know the only way to make this engine survive anytihng north from 300hp/550 Nm on the street (not just drag racing) is to lower the compression ratio alot and run big nozzles and a healthy lambda so egt stays below 875.

Note that the exhaust spring have a smaller installed height then the intake ones on most of the 2.0 heads. therefore that could have been the cause why all the exh rockers where gone and the intake not.

In my engine that dropped the intake valve (and ran the reground colt cam) the top of the stems and all the rockers where still mint. I re used the rockers on the new AMC head and up till now it covered already 30k km w 300hp/600 Nm, using the power daily on the german highway. (it did cost me 3 gearboxes though in this time). what I learned from this is that 600 Nm works fine in a 2,0 tdi, just not before 3000 rpm. there the rpm oscillations are so severe the synchro rings crack.

Frank you make some good points and I tell the same to my customers - a few runs do not count.

I've covered 70k in my car now with 440hp plus and know the tipping point where problems start.
The only point I would add is that I've worked on many CR cars now and a lot of them have broken egt sensor's. I've had a B7 in recently reporting 600deg, which just wasn't correct for the amount of fuel being injected.

Replaced the sensor to get 900deg plus.


Cheers

Measure the seat height of intake and exhaust springs.
You need different springs between intake and exhaust. I dont remember but its a 3-4mm difference in height on all the heads i measured so far.

I agree an engine over 350 cant last long especially if you abuse it on a daily base (my case)

So going a different route now to improve a few things, mainly PCP.

Frank, Ruben, Bobby, Mac,

I truly appreciate your comments and help. Yup no doubt when pushing the limits we can expect more problems and wear. 400 HP are not in my goals but cracking 300hp with reasonable reliability are. This car is now less than a daily driver. Evenings, weekends and occasional track days. I'll be pleased if I get 40,000 miles from it. You are correct Frank, about only seeing one side. Well, here is my mess... Hahaha.

Bobby, I've been getting a lot of questions about the injectors I have that you made up, been aiming them your way.

Ruben and Mac, this is news to me about the height difference between the intake and exhaust valves. I believe that the ones I put in are all the same height. I'm now going to have some porting done on the head and thinking about V6 TDI valves. I will be bringing the head to a specialist to do the porting and valve job. I will inquire about the spring height.

It will be a slow process for me as I have limited time for my car hobby, but will share what I find out so others may avoid my mistakes.

Now in its natural habitat....

I have stood in your shoes, Travis, and it's a learning experience that is not only painful, but expensive. There are several builders I watch and when the engine blows up, I say to myself, "Well, you can't do that..."

400hp... I always wonder about the dynos from 'over there'. It seems so unobtainable for me, but I think more and more as a matter of, "Do I really want to test the limits?"

My body has done this several times and I find myself asking, "If I knew I was going to live this long, would I have not taken that unreasonable risk?" God made me fearfully well, and if I had taken better care, I think, 'how long could I have lasted?'. But careless I was. It's the same with about every engine.

Your 'Lady in Red' is a monster that will eat many paychecks.

As a note, the 'lampshade intake' is less than what comes with the original package. Sorry, but the business with air filters is a personal pet peeve of mine... My 24v Cummins, with 190hp has a smaller filter than the stock PD air cleaner. And instead of drawing air from the outside, you are pulling heated air from the engine compartment. It's cute, but does as much good as a 4" exhaust pipe... nothing.

Btw: we sell an excellent rod for the CR. In my opinion, the best. Once you understand the advantages of the Molnar ARP asymmetric bolt, you would use no other..but that is just one of the advantages.

I think playing very carefully with low-end torque has always been an important issue. Once you get 'on the pipe', you can blow a lot of cobs out and the engine will be survivable.

I've watched many TDI engines go to the junkyard by thinking big torque below 2000 rpm is great. It's not. My opinion, avoiding low rpm and big torque... it's the single most important aspect of longevity. Tunes that 'protect you from yourself' are apparently, a good idea. Launch control is like cheating, but makes your engine last longer.

I wish you well. Sorry for the headaches. I really understand.

Franko6 said:

400hp... I always wonder about the dynos from 'over there'. It seems so unobtainable for me, but I think more and more as a matter of, "Do I really want to test the limits?"

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Lets not get into a dyno debate, I can get 100+hp extra going to a Mustang or dynojet. We gained 125bhp at a car show last year going from our dyno (DD) to a V-Tech, no need to add any fuel or boost, lol

This same tune made around 410 on our dyno (diesel only)
The Arosa has been ultra reliable at easily 600hp (cant hold more than 40% Nitrous on the dyno) at the track and 1/2 mile events but no-one seems to believe it. Melted pistons are the main worry for a car wanting to produce big power for an extended period, rockers falling to bits are not power related mostly. Low end torque lifts heads so more RPM's are better if you want to have some life from the engine.
The Citigo has had 2000+ miles on track last year at well over 300hp, hard use, not parade laps like some other big power cars seem to get, with 100% reliability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrRzVLtK2Ms
I have nothing to prove to disbelievers, their opinion is set in stone.
Travis, Looks like a geometry issue, what has Colt said? Have they had a full head to measure?

With the know how we have not 400+ are not a problem on any dyno.
Just need to improve 2-3 things for reliability in the long run , which i am doing now.
Ruben has an idea what i am talking about as i consulted him.

Ryan you have a MP.

Frank, the air filter was not a performance mod, but rather a way to make more space under the hood, fit the intercooler piping etc. I've stuck more money in this car than I could buy a similar stock one for now. Mostly because of modifications in steps instead of building big right off the bat. On my 4th turbo and should have skipped two. I really appreciate your wisdom and understand the point. These are economy cars built for longevity. However, this is not only about making a race car TDI for me as I know it can never be that, but also learning how all this works. Half the fun is putting it together. It kind of is like running TDI's on straight vegetable oil. I did this for over 10 years, built a centrifuge and filtration plant and drove the care all over the country reliabily. That is something I would not recommend to anyone unless you are half nuts to begin with. For me it isn't about the money, but the more important cost is the valuable time spent putting it together and fixing. There is no way I would have attempted this without the support of this great community and folks like yourself and may others here.

Ryan, I'm going to get that head off this weekend and will have more information to share. I don't want jump to conclusions yet until I can confirm that the timing belt and cams we're set properly. Will post a video soon.

Don't get me wrong, I love watching the action, and I'd rather have someone else 'break ground' and 'trailblaze'. It's much cheaper to watch from the sidelines. .

I still have my fun, as I can't stop tinkering myself. But for me, it's CNC machinery and practical application. On Monday, I finally got my rebuilt/updated 1998 KPM3 Hurco to digitally port ALH and AHU cylinder heads. (Pictures and videos to come.) There is a big learning curve for CNC, CAD/CAM and G-code which I think makes engine building look comparatively easy. This new toy will keep me busy for years to come..

I have people like Tom Rathbun, Gordy Peterson (Grand Rapids, MI) and Randy Palleson (Kansas City, KS) for all their extraordinary work to carry me this far. I can't begin to repay their kindness and expertise.

I've got a few lines of G-code to debug in the program, and it's been over a year of false starts. Bad opto relays, wiring issues, new updated 4 axis motherboard, encoder issues and following previous repair mistakes. That is great fun. There was a time I thought 'The Hurco From Hell' needed an exorcism...the previous owner was haunting the machine....and hours and hours with friends who endured my lack of understanding. I've broken $100 bits, blown up axis board power transistors, learned VFN's and a bit about voltage harmonic issues...Rebuilt the stepper motors, made the main drive motor spew smoke, cursed it like a bad dog a hundred times... And now with it running...

It was all worth it...

If I'm not learning, I'm dead.

I hope your luck changes, Travis.

Too much smoke there for the power you run. Should be smokeless since you have vklr also, you know the best spooling turbo bla bla
With camshaft and porting it should all go away.

Mac
Since you're here I'll ask you. Why didn't Jamie and Bobby put bigger valves in the head he ported?

The v6 valves are only something like .6mm larger diameter. Not sure if they really make too much of a difference. But for me, since Im going through the motions of the porting, may as well chuck the bigger valves in.

Does anyone have a source for the CR V6 valves? Coming up short from my regular parts guy.

Ryan, if melted pistons are an issue at extreme conditions, Matt Whitbread will have some forged steel pistons available soon. Last I heard, he just got the deal set with the manufacturer.

I haven't consulted with MecEvo or Colt just yet. I need to rule out installer error, which has good probability. It could very well be be that the grind is just too tight and clears at low RPM, but at high revs can hit. Just don't know yet.

dieselherb1 said:

Mac
Since you're here I'll ask you. Why didn't Jamie and Bobby put bigger valves in the head he ported?

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No major reason, just wanted to upgrade in stages to find gains at each stage.

If install was wrong would of popped instantly .

You have to check springs coil bind also, could be an issue. Check spring pockets on exh and intake.
I dont know why Bobby did not install valves, ask him.

LE. he answered

Mat Whitebread is hard to find and never answers business emails...i would not send him money tbh., maybe paypal only lol.

It appears that the gear slipped on the exhaust cam. Not sure if something broke, then jammed the cam, causing it to slip or if it just slipped causing the failure.

Timing belt is still perfect. Locked the crank and the cam sproket pin slipped right in with no resistance.

I would think that the gear should be fastened properly enough that the gear would strip teeth off before slipping on the camshaft.

Going to pull up the cam girdle next. Perhaps more details will emerge.

I'd send whatever data logging you were able to get over to Malone. Maybe they can glean something from it.

Already did that. Doesn't show much. All the curves look normal until it pops at 4,370 RPM.

travis45 said:

I would think that the gear should be fastened properly enough that the gear would strip teeth off before slipping on the camshaft.

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keyed?
straight shaft interface or tapered fit?

Because if it is a straight shaft with the gear pressed on, that reeks of a loose fit.
Good boob-fix is to drill and tap a setscrew in the split between the gear and shaft, as a key. Though that won't help now, it might help once you get new valves and rockers in there and want to reuse the cam set.

It's straight fit frozen on

Macradiators.com said:

Measure the seat height of intake and exhaust springs.
You need different springs between intake and exhaust. I dont remember but its a 3-4mm difference in height on all the heads i measured so far.

I agree an engine over 350 cant last long especially if you abuse it on a daily base (my case)

So going a different route now to improve a few things, mainly PCP.

Click to expand...

Mine did.