Hybrids get the ink, are diesels better?

Oberkanone

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thecarconnection diesel or hybrid article

A large segment of the driving public is thirsting to drive less thirsty cars. Not only is that what surveys show, but the runaway success of the gasoline-electric hybrids such atToyota's Prius demonstrates it.

But along with the success of hybrids has come disappointment and frustration. Drivers are simply not getting the gas mileage from their hybrids that they were led to expect.

Partly at fault is the manner in which the EPA comes up with its figures, those city and highway mileage estimates printed darkly on a vehicle's window sticker. The EPA methods to set mileage figures, unchanged since 1985, inadvertently favor the way hybrids work. Thus Prius buyers are tantalized with a figure of 60 mpg for city driving, but when the real world yields something closer to 40 the hybrid buyers are vocally annoyed. Instead of bragging to friends they are complaining to everybody.

Euro approach

In Europe, on the other hand, saving on fuel has been driven by more than recent upward spikes in prices. Gasoline has long cost upwards of $5 a gallon there. European drivers take two avenues to saving on their fuel costs; they think small and they think diesel. More than half of the cars on the road, called Class A vehicles, are smaller than anything on American highways. These small cars with small, thrifty gasoline engines are the choice of the frugal who thus save on initial cost of the car, on taxes and on gasoline.

Of the remaining minority of cars most are diesel powered with the number growing.

Though diesels get much better mileage than gasoline engines that is not, I was told on a recent trip to the continent, the main reason Europeans love them. In Europe, turbocharged diesels are desirable for their superior performance. Diesel have a steeper, flatter torque curve than gas engines, the peak push often coming just off idle. Out to launch, indeed. Torque is what gives a car quickness off the line and superior pick-up for passing and merging. Horsepower counts more for top speed, legally much higher on European superhighways than in the U.S., but in increasingly fewer places even there.

The thriftiness of diesel at the pump is appreciated by the owners of luxury vehicles not primarily because of a lowered fuel bill, but for safety reasons, or so I was told by the head of Mercedes-Benz in Italy. Safety? In answer to my puzzled expression he explained that better fuel mileage and large fuel tanks made for a long range with few or no stops on the way. High-profile executives being driven on business from city to city are thus exposed to a lessened risk of car-jacking. Yes, he said, this is a serious concern in Europe.

American choices

When it comes to buying a diesel engine Americans have far fewer choices in passenger vehicles than European buyers. Mercedes-Benz recently reintroduced a diesel sedan to the U.S. market after a five-year absence. This is the new E320 CDI, also available in a gasoline engine.

Volkswagen during that time has been the sole seller of passenger diesels in the U.S. with its TDI models of the popular Golf, Jetta and New Beetle. Now it has introduced a Passat TDI in both a sedan and a wagon and added a third Touareg to its V-6 and V-8 lineup - a V-10 turbodiesel. The Passat looks and acts richer than its mid-20's price tag. The V-10 gives the already capable Touareg tons of torque and impressive power but for some big bucks, in the mid-60s.

Diesel development in the U.S. has been hindered by the poor quality of diesel fuel in the country. American diesel is still heavy on sulfur content, long since removed from the fuel in Europe. New U.S. regulations call for diesel fuel sans sulfur by 2006 and some car companies, notably BMW, say they will wait until the new fuel is in place before introducing their diesel-powered vehicles to the U.S. (Which means the delightful MINI One D is several years distant if it comes to the U.S. at all.)

Another problem: just as diesel fuel is cleaning up its act, stricter regulations on diesel emissions go into effect, particularly in California and four northeastern states (New York, Massachusetts, Maine and Vermont.)

A way around

All this is keeping the midnight oil burning in various laboratories across the world, particularly that of Robert Bosch GmbH, leaders in innovations toward cleaner, quieter, odor-free diesel engines. Bosch is working on both the system favored by VW and that being used by nearly every other manufacturer, including VW's partner, Audi.

For VW, Bosch has created a unique pump-nozzle injection system. Mercedes-Benz and most other manufacturers are going with what is called the Common Rail system (CDI) now in its third generation and counting at Bosch.

Judging from my experience with the Mercedes E 230D and the Passat TDI - and in Ireland with the MINI One D, a 1.4-liter common rail turbodiesel from Toyota - the common rail diesels exhibit notably less of the traditional diesel clatter than the TDI pump. All are far quieter than present diesels.

Both systems, TDI and CDI, are in a race with the shrinking window of compliance imposed by California (plus four). Both VW and M-B say they believe they will be in compliance come crunch time.

Diesel alternatives

Drivers drawn to diesel for its virtues of torque, longevity and fuel economy, but are conflicted over its emitted particulates and other transgressions have found some solace in the prospect of using the more environmentally-friendly diesel fuel made from such as soybeans and rapeseed. Biodiesel has shown particular promise in Europe and Canada.

However Bosch has now put the kibosh on those hopes. Or at least put them on hold until biodiesel can be standardized to a specification satisfactory to Bosch. This means engine warranties, heretofore allowed with certain exceptions for owners using biodiesel, will now generally be disallowed. At least for the newer, cleaner diesel engines with their fine misting sprays and miniscule tolerances. "We have found black mold in the injectors and other parts of the system from biodiesel use," a Bosch engineer explained. It is not a complication they want to bother with right now.

Black mold is a matter that probably can be dealt with in formulating the biodiesel fuel, but until the problem is met Bosch does not want to add yet another variable to the delicate balance of selling Americans on cleaner, odor-free, quiet diesel engines. Too much is changing too fast to add another element seems to be Bosch's view. Later, just not now. "We are in favor of biodiesel," I was told, "But not with the fuel as it now exists."

Older diesel engines, far out of warranty, and not complicated with the finer tolerances and the extraordinary pressures and misted sprays will continue to do well on biodiesel, possibly even on the home brews created from spent cooking oils. Just don't bring it up around Bosch, VW or Mercedes right now.
 

AutoDiesel

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Instead of bragging to friends they are complaining to everybody .
More dribble from a few, very few, putz's that don't know how to drive.
This is getting very old.

For Speeders, Hybrids Suck Gas
Bill Gausman, who regularly posts his mileage on GreenHybrid.com, said, "I'd have to throw an anchor out of my window to get mileage that bad," referring to drivers who report receiving less than 40 mpg.

It's easy to get bad mileage with automatic trans. vehicles, TDi or otherwise.
Just like on the flip side it is easy to get very good mileage with stick-shift TDi's. (or stick-shift hybrids like the Insight)

The only "everybody" that is complaining in the press on a regular basis is that Blackman moron.
Sounds like a broken record to me.
Why don't they talk more with the people who get very good mileage more often? Doesn't sell print because it is not "negative" like all media likes today. The typical "let's talk down something" to pump up something else is just getting very old and more and more making me very selective in what news I even listen to.

"We have found black mold in the injectors and other parts of the system from biodiesel use,"
So the truth comes out, some more.

Do what you want, use want you want.
Just don't expect the OEM's to support you.
 

SwimmerDave

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"We have found black mold in the injectors and other parts of the system from biodiesel use,"
Which fuel ? Homemade or commercial ? If commercial, from what ? Rapeseed ? Soy ? Other ?

How many miles ? What biodiesel concentration ? Which pump/injector setups : CDI, unit-injector, both, other ?

So the truth comes out, some more.
I was unaware that there is "the" truth.
 

AutoDiesel

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Which fuel ? Homemade or commercial ? If commercial, from what ? Rapeseed ? Soy ? Other ?

How many miles ? What biodiesel concentration ? Which pump/injector setups : CDI, unit-injector, both, other ?
I'm not going to "get into it" in depth any longer in the name of keeping things civil around here.
But I have posted links in the past to reports in Europe with these and other problems in the past with fuel that was rated with the latest and best EIN/DIN standards and they still had problems, mainly with the newest injection equipement that produces the highest pressures and have the closest tolerances.

Like I've said, do what you want, use what you want.

Just don't complain about the OEM's when they don't support the same views/choices as yours.

The "truth" is Bosch and other OEM's would like to support the direction of alternative fuels but so far have found that the results have not been as glowingly and glossily wonderfull as the alternative fuel crowd want's you to believe.
 

nh mike

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Instead of bragging to friends they are complaining to everybody .
More dribble from a few, very few, putz's that don't know how to drive.
This is getting very old.

For Speeders, Hybrids Suck Gas
Bill Gausman, who regularly posts his mileage on GreenHybrid.com, said, "I'd have to throw an anchor out of my window to get mileage that bad," referring to drivers who report receiving less than 40 mpg.
Looks like you (and Bill Gausman) haven't spent much time checking people's mileage figures over at greenhybrid.com
See
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/details.php?cid=239
(mileage ranging from 33 mpg to 47 mpg)

most of the ones I've looked at there are getting in the 40-45 mpg range - far below the claims for the Prius. Apparently though if you average out all of them, the Prius owners at the site are getting around 47-48 mpg. See
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/

While the advertised mileage is 60/51.

With most cars, people generally average near the better mileage figure, often over (for example, we're averaging around 47 mpg on our two TDIs, running on biodiesel. My parents, with their new passat TDI, are averaging around 38-42 mpg, with its 27/38 mpg figures).

If a vehicle advertises 60/51 mileage, people expect to get somewhere between those two figures (that's how it works out with normal vehicles usually). When they're averaging below them - many significantly below, they tend to be surprised.

And also, for the greenhybrid figures, bare in mind that these are from ENTHUSIASTS, who are TRYING to get good mileage. Just as you shouldn't treat the mileage figures for people posting in the TDI Fuel economy forum as typical of TDI drivers, the values at greenhybrid should be higher than average - and they're STILL below the claimed figures.

"We have found black mold in the injectors and other parts of the system from biodiesel use,"
So the truth comes out, some more.

Do what you want, use want you want.
Just don't expect the OEM's to support you.
I'm curious what "black mold" is supposed to be. Are they saying they actually found mold in there? A simple biocide would eliminate that, although mold would generally be an indication of improper fuel storage (and storing it too long).
 

wxman

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More dribble from a few, very few, putz's that don't know how to drive.
This is getting very old.
My sentiments exactly about quotes in virtually every article on diesel cars from environmentalist putzes who don't know anything about air quality chemistry and who won't take yes for an answer to clean diesels in the USA!
 

shoebear

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I was unaware that there is "the" truth.
Wow, what a post-modern epistemology!

I support (and have used) biodiesel, but Bosch has a point about standards and consistency. Right now in the USA, it's caveat emptor when it comes to quality. And I think all commercial biodiesel should have a biocide of some sort added to safeguard against bacterial infestations. It's not a common problem, but it's also not uncommon, particularly in warm, humid climates.

If I were Bosch, I would do the same thing. But if I were a biodiesel manufacturer, I would push for refinement of the D6751 standard and work with Bosch, Siemens, Cat, and other manufacturers of modern diesel injection systems to see what they would need changed.

Biodiesel is a great product, but it's not mature in the USA yet.
 

AutoDiesel

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Looks like you (and Bill Gausman) haven't spent much time checking people's mileage figures over at greenhybrid.com
See
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/details.php?cid=239
(mileage ranging from 33 mpg to 47 mpg)
Well, actually I have looked over there and your link in misleading. That is only for one vehicle.
The real total average for all posters is......
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/hybrids.php
The average for all hybrids is 52.4 mpg .

If a vehicle advertises 60/51 mileage, people expect to get somewhere between those two figures (that's how it works out with normal vehicles usually). When they're averaging below them - many significantly below, they tend to be surprised.
Only idiots would be surprised.
Just like that Blackman fellow.

The publicized figures were hype, I'll agree.
But it doesn't mean that they can't be achieved.

Just as you shouldn't treat the mileage figures for people posting in the TDI Fuel economy forum as typical of TDI drivers, the values at greenhybrid should be higher than average - and they're STILL below the claimed figures.
Oh, I take most of the claimed high mileage figures around here with a grain of salt. I know what a automatic TDi can do and I know a few people with stick-shift TDi's and with normal everyday driving in the cut-and-thrust world of normal commuting in big cities I have rarely heard from anyone I know stating their standard trans. TDi's get some of the miraculous claims that have been posted. Mid-to-high forties with everyday driving with standard trans. and mid-to-high thirties with automatic trans.

And again, the comparisons being made are not direct correlations in most cases. Most hybrids and most TDi's sold on the market are CVT and automatic transmission cars respectively.
So if you want to make a comparison those two transmissions should be used. Stick shift cars are a rarity in this market and comprise only about 5% of the market now. And it is dropping every year. Even in Europe there is a distinct move to auto-shift or full auto trans. Auto trans. sales there was up roughly 60% last year there from what I have read.

Stick-shift TDi's are very capable of very high mpg numbers, that is not in question.
But this insistent crapping on someone else's product to try and make another look good is just that, CRAP!
 

RogueTDI

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Instead of bragging to friends they are complaining to everybody .
More dribble from a few, very few, putz's that don't know how to drive.
This is getting very old.
So, I guess Toyota engineers, who have admitted to these problems, are a bunch of putzes too?
 

GotDiesel?

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We all know that hybrids do well with a certain kind of driving and that TDIs do well under other kinds of driving.

I can get 30 mpg in my stick-shift TDI doing cold start after cold start taking my kids to school in the wintertime and not going anywhere else. An automatic TDI would almost certainly do worse.

In that kind of driving, a Prius would absolutely clean my car's clock.

It's obvious looking at the design of a hybrid that stop-and-go driving is their forte.

The huge efficiencies come mainly from being able to recover some of the energy it took to get the car up to speed instead of turning it into heat and brake dust.

It seems petty to pee on the hybrid parade. I personally don't care if all the people who thought SUVs were cool get into a trendy hybrid instead of a diesel.

Given the potential maintenance issues of the TDIs with the fuel we have here, those people by and large would be poor candidates for diesel ownership anyway.
 

amorfeusz

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Well, actually I have looked over there and your link in misleading. That is only for one vehicle.
The real total average for all posters is......
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/hybrids.php
The average for all hybrids is 52.4 mpg .
True - but the small and aerodynamic Insight is what's bringing up the average drastically - if you don't include that one it's more like 48MPG

I'm only saying this because the Insight is to hybrids sort of what the Lupo is to TDI's... if we included Lupo economy in a spread of TDI data it would also greatly shift the curve towards the right.

I also find it funny how they include 'light trucks' and I assume gas-guzzling SUV's into the non-hybrid category. Watch the average hybrid MPG go dooooown once the Hybrid SUV's and Light pick up trucks appear.. the chart won't look so nice anymore..

Oh, and since we can add our own cars to that board, I suggest we all (or as many as wish to) add our MPG data to the database. I just did and will post my 1st tank log when I fill up on the way home tonight.

http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/details.php?cid=286

Eventually we could ask them to add diesels as a category.. it would only be fair


Also, the non-hybrid data on their database should reflect the cars submitted by non-hybrid users - not some government statistics..... I will e-mail them about this - I urge you to do also.
 

AutoDiesel

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So, I guess Toyota engineers, who have admitted to these problems, are a bunch of putzes too?
No, those are the guys that admit the EPA ratings are outdated and need to be changed.

They are not the guys that go out and buy a hybrid (or TDi for that matter) and drive like morons and speed and generally don't drive all all to get the best mileage.
Or know how.

If you go check the Fuel Economy threads you'll see there's plenty of unhappy TDi owners to go around concerning mileage.
 

AutoDiesel

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I also find it funny how they include 'light trucks' and I assume gas-guzzling SUV's into the non-hybrid category. Watch the average hybrid MPG go dooooown once the Hybrid SUV's and Light pick up trucks appear.. the chart won't look so nice anymore..
They want to make a comparison to what the general population is buying. But I do agree that once the SUV or large vehicle hybrids come out then those averages will go down.
But the good part will be that the mileage of those same vehicles will be going up. Real-world testing of the new Ford Escape hybrid has resulted in a figure of 38mpg for just city driving. Not a test track but various drivers driving around New York city for 37 hours. Much better than the regular engines.

Also, the non-hybrid data on their database should reflect the cars submitted by non-hybrid users - not some government statistics..... I will e-mail them about this - I urge you to do also.
Yep, I do agree.
 

earthworm

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Of course the Diesel is better that the Otto, at least in the important aspects(durability, economy of operation, with decent performance.
The problem is , few car buyers , and salesmen, know anything about engines, and evidently they could care less.
They( the majority, I guess) seem to want some thing that is totally quiet, totally odorless, and totally maintenance free..
And, maybe one of these fine days, that is what "they" will end up with.
The cost, no doubt, will be scary !

I would love to see how well a Diesel hybrid functions, particularly in a city bus( as an example, I am a "country" boy, and never want to lose the freedom that an automobile gives).
 

V

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Most hybrids and most TDi's sold on the market are CVT and automatic transmission cars respectively.
So if you want to make a comparison those two transmissions should be used.
A CVT is much more efficient than an auto. It is close to, if not better, than a 5-speed manual. So a hybrid with a CVT will have a significant advantage over a TDI automatic right off the bat. Of course, direct comparisons between hybrids and diesel cars are always tricky given the fact that hybrids on sale today employ numerous fuel saving measures such as weight reduction and low roll resistant tires, in addition to hybridization.
 

amorfeusz

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Didn't know the 38mpg figure was based on real-world data - if that's true than I am truly impressed.

Also, has anyone seen those two civics in the greenhybrid non-hybrid database? Both guys have over 200,000 miles and they usually get over 50mpg? Nevermind, just found more out more about those..

they have 1.5L engines, 92 HP (VX) 70HP (CX), and 97 /90(CX) torque, manual only- EPA rated at 47/56hwy - that's pretty impressive, however they do weight about 1000lbs less than my TDI.
----
 

RichC

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I got a kick out of CNBC's Squawkbox show this morning as they ran a poll "about Hybrids ... of course" and if they were something worth considering. They also had a video segment with one of the hosts (Joe Kernan) driving a Ford Escape SUV Hybrid ... in my estimation he was polite but didn't do Ford any favors.
I'd love to see them test drive the Passat TDI and give a comparison considing the mileage and performance is far better IMHO.

If you've got a moment take a peek a the video clip. (dial up beware)
 

AutoDiesel

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Didn't know the 38mpg figure was based on real-world data - if that's true than I am truly impressed.
Yep, real world with a variety of drivers including the obligatory celebs.

Ford Escape Hybrid Sets SUV Mileage Record in 37-Hour Non-Stop Driving Test on a Tank of Gas
NEW YORK, April 7 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- After being driven non-stop for 37 hours as part of an extreme driving test throughout Manhattan, taking on traffic congestion, morning and evening rush hours, the all-new 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid traveled an amazing 576 miles on a single tank of gas during this epic drive. The Escape Hybrid, the world's first hybrid sport utility vehicle, averaged more than 38 miles per gallon.
"This is phenomenal! We beat our own best estimates," says Mary Ann Wright, Ford director of Hybrid Vehicle Programs. "We set out to drive at least 500 miles of city traffic. The Escape Hybrid surpassed the ultimate urban driving test proving it is the cleanest and most fuel-efficient SUV on the planet."
With concerns about rising gas prices, Ford designed the "Manhattan on a Tank of Gas" event to see how many miles the new hybrid electric SUV could be driven on a single tank of gas in severe traffic conditions. The test began on Monday, April 5 in mid-town Manhattan and ended late Tuesday night, April 6. Several celebrities drove a short leg of the epic journey in and around Manhattan including actor Kevin Bacon, actress Jaime Gleicher, and NASCAR driver Kurt Busch.
Ford Chairman and CEO Bill Ford announced the results at the New York International Auto Show, where the 2005 Escape Hybrid made its official debut. Available at the end of the summer, the Escape Hybrid combines the fuel economy and emissions benefits of a full hybrid with the go anywhere capability, toughness and spaciousness of the Ford Escape, America's favorite small SUV. Escape Hybrid is the first hybrid electric vehicle that can comfortably accommodate five adults and their gear.
 

AutoDiesel

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I'd love to see them test drive the Passat TDI and give a comparison considing the mileage and performance is far better IMHO.
But a Passat isn't a SUV.
Small SUV sales have gone way up as large SUV sales have gone down.
Even the regular Escapes sale have gone up almost double in the last few months.
There will be more cross-over type vehicles and small SUV's on the market in the next few years and that will be the strongest growth areas.
 

AutoDiesel

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Does the Escape Hybrid have a bladder in the fuel tank as the Prius does?
From what I've read Toyota is the only one that uses a bladder in the fuel tank. Everyone else uses more advance carbon canisters and revised purge valves along with redesigned fuel tanks and filler necks and double sealed fuel line connections.
There's quite a few PZEV's on the market now so the technology must be readily available and easily installed. The price premium for a PZEV Focus is only a $115 dollar option. They should just do it for all of the gassers and be done with it.
 

jrivers804

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Talk about "newspeak" and double talk. "Partial zero" think about it. Partial zero is that like being kind of pregnant? Our govenment at work, they need to drop such meaningless double speak and while they are at it, drop all the "special" gasoline formulations that make gas prices so volatile in the portions of the country so dictated.
 

RogueTDI

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I got a kick out of CNBC's Squawkbox show this morning as they ran a poll "about Hybrids ... of course" and if they were something worth considering. They also had a video segment with one of the hosts (Joe Kernan) driving a Ford Escape SUV Hybrid ... in my estimation he was polite but didn't do Ford any favors.
I'd love to see them test drive the Passat TDI and give a comparison considing the mileage and performance is far better IMHO.

If you've got a moment take a peek a the video clip. (dial up beware)

LOL. That was one of the most PEETHETIC car reviews I have ever seen. Like, could that guy Joe find it within himself to find any adjectives at all to adequately describe the Escape??


And I couldnt tell if all those old dudes were being facitious, but whats with the talk of driving over other cars??
The whole review had that sort of feel to it like "these things are for weenies only, and we are embarrased to be doing this review." Like, what a sad, middle-aged testosterone-deficient, male-ego-stroking-fest.
 

RichC

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LOL. That was one of the most PEETHETIC car reviews I have ever seen. Like, could that guy Joe find it within himself to find any adjectives at all to adequately describe the Escape??


And I couldnt tell if all those old dudes were being facitious, but whats with the talk of driving over other cars??
The whole review had that sort of feel to it like "these things are for weenies only, and we are embarrased to be doing this review." Like, what a sad, middle-aged testosterone-deficient, male-ego-stroking-fest.
And the sad part is that I waited to leave the house for this 'piece' to come on and eventually had to set the recorder as it wasn't played until 9:45 ... and for what ... middle age comedy? Anyway, it is always good to see what the middle aged (oh that's me?)wallstreet crowd is interested in. SUVs and cars that go vrooommm. (Joe Kernan drives a Porche) As for Mark Haines ... yes there is an inside joke about him and his Suburban, hense the comments about running over cars. (remember we are talking NYC here)
 

wojtas_s

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I would love to see how well a Diesel hybrid functions, particularly in a city bus( as an example, I am a "country" boy, and never want to lose the freedom that an automobile gives).
U want an example here it is from seattle public transportation:http://transit.metrokc.gov/am/vehicles/hy-diesel_videotext.html

For me it is the best application for hybrid: bus that is used almost constantly therefore maximizing fuel savings plus it is used in stop and go driving that is good for hybrids
 

nh mike

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Looks like you (and Bill Gausman) haven't spent much time checking people's mileage figures over at greenhybrid.com
See
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/details.php?cid=239
(mileage ranging from 33 mpg to 47 mpg)
Well, actually I have looked over there and your link in misleading. That is only for one vehicle.
The real total average for all posters is......
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/hybrids.php
The average for all hybrids is 52.4 mpg .
Dude, I posted that link (for the average of all the people there) also. Nice job of reading my post. Try reading what I wrote. For all of the hybrids there (especially the Prius), people are averaging below the claimed figures.

If a vehicle advertises 60/51 mileage, people expect to get somewhere between those two figures (that's how it works out with normal vehicles usually). When they're averaging below them - many significantly below, they tend to be surprised.
Only idiots would be surprised.
Just like that Blackman fellow.

The publicized figures were hype, I'll agree.
Dude, then why are you throwing a fit when people here point out that the advertised figures are inflated? Just to argue?

And why SHOULDN'T people expect to get the advertised figures? We do with our TDIs. Most people do with most vehicles - just not with hybrids.

But it doesn't mean that they can't be achieved.
Sure, and you can achieve 80 mpg with a TDI in some driving conditions, does that mean VW should be advertising that as the expected number?

Just as you shouldn't treat the mileage figures for people posting in the TDI Fuel economy forum as typical of TDI drivers, the values at greenhybrid should be higher than average - and they're STILL below the claimed figures.
Oh, I take most of the claimed high mileage figures around here with a grain of salt. I know what a automatic TDi can do and I know a few people with stick-shift TDi's and with normal everyday driving in the cut-and-thrust world of normal commuting in big cities I have rarely heard from anyone I know stating their standard trans. TDi's get some of the miraculous claims that have been posted. Mid-to-high forties with everyday driving with standard trans. and mid-to-high thirties with automatic trans.
Which falls right within the mileage figures VW claims. The point is - VW isn't claiming the highest mileage you could POSSIBLY achieve (for example, Jonathan Bartlett averaged over 80 mpg in the Tour de Sol under pretty accurately measured conditions) - the figures listed are pretty much what people can expect. The same is not true for hybrids.

And again, the comparisons being made are not direct correlations in most cases. Most hybrids and most TDi's sold on the market are CVT and automatic transmission cars respectively.
So if you want to make a comparison those two transmissions should be used. Stick shift cars are a rarity in this market and comprise only about 5% of the market now.
Wow you are delusional. You seriously think the majority of TDIs are automatics? Wow. Visit a dealership sometime, or search for vehicles for sale on autotrader, ebay, etc. , and see how many automatic TDIs yo ufind.

Yes, a CVT is more efficient than a regular automatic. Wait until VW starts selling their DSG trannies.

Stick-shift TDi's are very capable of very high mpg numbers, that is not in question.
But this insistent crapping on someone else's product to try and make another look good is just that, CRAP!
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nh mike

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 28, 2002
Location
NH
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS wagon, 2004 Passat GLS wagon
It seems petty to pee on the hybrid parade. I personally don't care if all the people who thought SUVs were cool get into a trendy hybrid instead of a diesel.
Good point, and I agree. My only issue is that it's not right to claim mileage better than they actually get, and it's annoying that hybrids get so much press, while diesels get so little. I'd love to see some diesel-electric hybrids commercially available. Hybrid technology is a great thing - just tie it to a diesel engine, and run it on biodiesel.
 

AutoDiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2000
Location
Pacific Northwest
Sure, and you can achieve 80 mpg with a TDI in some driving conditions, does that mean VW should be advertising that as the expected number?
Yea, sure. Putting around a close-circuit track under controlled conditions in a 8.5 year old vehicle. That's right, I forgot they called it a "prototype" at the Tour de Sole.

If you'd get your head out of that dark space between your legs you'd go check and see that manufacturers don't have any choice and have to post the EPA figures.
They aren't allowed to post their own.

Wow you are delusional. You seriously think the majority of TDIs are automatics? Wow. Visit a dealership sometime, or search for vehicles for sale on autotrader, ebay, etc. , and see how many automatic TDIs yo ufind.
Ebay has about 12. The local dealers had plenty when I checked. Didn't check Autotrader. Last time I did I found plenty. The stats are easy to find. Just because a few devoted radicals here at Fred's prefer manuals doesn't mean that is what is sold the most.

Oh by the way.
All new Passat TDi's come with automatic's now.
All new Touaregs TDi's come with automatic's.
Are you going to see any automatic TDi Phaetons?
No.

Yes, a CVT is more efficient than a regular automatic. Wait until VW starts selling their DSG trannies.
When pigs fly!
They already decided they won't sell the R32 here with it.
And they are only now getting around to selling manu/matics in their regular models.

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So tell me more.
That was interesting.
 
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