Oil service life

PD Rig · Aug 6, 2017

A friend has a "long distance diesel" that he keeps in his garage most of the time and also has an electric vehicle. He does a lot of short distance trips so he hardly drives his diesel, but when he does it is highway driving. He drives a common rail Passat. I was over at his place yesterday and he told me he changes his oil in his oil every 6 months. I told him that he was nuts and that he would be fine for at least a year between changes. Probably longer. I could understand changing that often if he drove it 5 miles and shut it off all the time. He said he is lucky if he gets 2000 miles between oil changes. At that rate I think he would be safe changing every two years provided the oil does not get too acidic in that time. Seems like a huge waste of oil and time to change it. Thoughts? Links to articles addressing this subject.? Since we are on the subject, could we address vw504/507 oil and cj4. I would assume a cj4 could sit longer In the sump than a 507 oil because the cj4 Tbn numbers are higher than The 507 from what I have seen.

nayr · Aug 6, 2017

The oil he is putting into his car sat on the shelf for longer than 6months.. once a year would be the fastest he should be changing it IMO..

turbobrick240 · Aug 6, 2017

It is a huge waste of oil. I agree that he would be fine changing it every couple of years. Not only is he wasting time and money, but a 2k mile interval is going to cause far more wear than 10k. He is probably set in his ways though, so I wouldn't try too hard to convince him.

tdiatlast · Aug 6, 2017

Is there a risk of "too acidic" with synthetic oils? I thought not.

Quality synthetic needs mileage based changes, not time, IIRC. Changing every 2k miles is a waste/rick in so many ways...

PD Rig · Aug 6, 2017

I should have phrased too acidic differently as any acidity is bad. What I meant was keeping it in the sump long enough to have the tbn exhausted which should be mileage driven.

Jetta_Pilot · Aug 6, 2017

Actually I believe that in this case his Diesel falls into the severe service category where more frequent changes are called for. The little old lady only driving to church on Sundays, that's severe service too. If the car was driven every day that would be normal, just sitting there is not.

turbobrick240 · Aug 6, 2017

I don't see his driving pattern as severe duty. Neither does the owners manual consider it severe duty.

James & Son · Aug 6, 2017

could we address vw504/507 oil and cj4

I think the owners manual is clear on this. CJ4 is not low ash.

At 4000 miles a year, he could change the oil and oil filter every Nov. or every other Nov. and have less risk of damage caused by dirt ingestion from to many oil changes.

If you want to be concerned for him i would be more concerned about winter body corrosion. With the money saved he could have it waxed every year and detailed.

PD Rig · Aug 6, 2017

James & Son said:
I think the owners manual is clear on this. CJ4 is not low ash.

At 4000 miles a year, he could change the oil and oil filter every Nov. or every other Nov. and have less risk of damage caused by dirt ingestion from to many oil changes.

If you want to be concerned for him i would be more concerned about winter body corrosion. With the money saved he could have it waxed every year and detailed

I was not suggesting the use of a cj4 oil.in a stock common rail. My bew is the only tdi in my garage that gets the cj4. The cj4 comment was for my own benefit. Again from what I have seen with the cj4 oils the tbn is higher than the 507 spec oils. I just wanted to throw cj4 into the equation because I have a JD backhoe that does not get a lot of use and from what I have read, changing it every few years is just fine. So I change it about every 3 years. Now the dealer has told me that every year is a must. When I asked them why I was told that is what the manufacturer suggests. I thought a member may be able to make an argument why 1 could stay in the sump longer than the other based only on time. It seems that the consensus in this thread is if you are using a synthetic oil, change it based on its use. Not on the months it has been in the sump

VwPassion · Aug 7, 2017

I have common rail and i not using 507 spec oil, i do use full saps . Result ? 2,5 gr ash out of 70 max in my dpf in 65k km (or 40k+ miles ) . Not see why i should use 507 specs .If the engine is not burning oil directly and the oil that you ll use , have low noack ,use full saps and change it at 10k max km (6k miles or so ) .

( For now i use this ... )

jrm · Aug 7, 2017

I have a few rigs (quads, bikes, rigs in my sig, ect) that are in mint condition but I never drive (don't ask) that sit in a heated garage, I change the oil every 2 years or 5k miles on them mostly because when I do drive them I drive them hard, Nice golden oil= happy engine seals

oilhammer · Aug 8, 2017

Volkswagen's on board PM minder sets the time at 372 days. That is longer than six months. Not sure what more you can do aside from pointing this out IN HIS OWN CAR, or in his car's manual.

Rico567 · Aug 8, 2017

Changing modern synthetic oil this frequently has nothing to do with the quality of the oil. This is just a holdover from days of yore and the 3K mile oil change. And the fact that this car is only used for distance driving makes the oil condition optimal. I'd not let it go more than 2 years, however (which is the spec on the synthetic oil changes in our standby generator).
The "OCI Syndrome" can manifest itself in some pretty extreme OCD behavior. I used to belong to a local car club, and one guy would use the monthly club meeting as an excuse to change his oil....which invariably had less than 1K miles on it, and hadn't even begun to discolor.

Drivbiwire · Aug 9, 2017

Diesels do not have the Sulfur levels to deal with which is the major reason for acidic formation in the oil. TBN (Total Base Number) is used to determine an oils suitability for changes based on "Duration" vs miles/hours of operation.

In the case of somebody driving low miles, oil change intervals of 2-3 years is absolutely in the realm of reasonable if not IDEAL!

Repetitive oil changes will increase wear, and is causing far more damage to the cam and other parts due to a lack of HP/EP additive formation due to perpetual detergency.

If he has any doubt, do an oil analysis after 2 years, you'll find that the oil is in nearly new condition!

The next biggest factor is whether he is getting the engine up to operating temperature, no amount of oil changes will reduce wear caused by a lack of sustained operating temperature... Installing a hotter thermostat (195F etc) and using a block heater as well as a radiator block to reduce airflow to the cooling system all help get the engine up to operating temperature faster, and burn off residual moisture.

Odd are, if you inspect the cam, he's already showing signs of severe wear and will be in need of a cam...

Less is ALWAYS more on a TDI!

Mike_04GolfTDI · Aug 10, 2017

Lots of short trips would be bad for the oil, and then it would be worth changing it once per year.

If he only drives it on long trips, so the car is at full operating temperature most of the time, I wouldn't hesitate to change based on mileage.

My father in law bought a 2016 Jetta TSI in June of last year. The thing was nagging for an oil change recently and only had 1500 miles on it! He's in his 80's and drives it a couple blocks once a week to the senior's center, or something like that. In that case, I did change the oil because it likely has condensation in it, and maybe some fuel dilution from only running in a cold engine basically all the time. I didn't change the filter though. Just a top-side oil change with an oil extractor. Maybe next year I'll drain it properly and change the filter...when he has 3000 miles on it.

TooSlick · Aug 17, 2017

Again with the unmitigated nonsense...LOL

You could literally change your oil every day and the only "damage" would be to your wallet. Oil analysis results are informative, but the absolute numbers can be misleading if you don't understand anything about tribology. I would certainly agree however that changing oil too often provides no discernible benefits.

The TBN of any oil can and will deplete over time as chemical reactions run to completion. The process of oil oxidation is greatly accelerated by heat, but it does occur without the engine even running, albeit at a much slower rate. Oil oxidation results in the formation of various types of organic acids, which are then neutralized by the alkaline detergent/dispersant additives in the oil. These reactions take place even without the presence of diesel fuel residues, although again, the reaction rates are accelerated by fuel in the crankcase.

TS

DubFamily · Aug 19, 2017

TooSlick said:
You could literally change your oil every day and the only "damage" would be to your wallet. Oil analysis results are informative, but the absolute numbers can be misleading if you don't understand anything about tribology. I would certainly agree however that changing oil too often provides no discernible benefits.

^Not really true.

Short OCI causes increased metal wear; there's a discussion about this on one of the BMW forums I started visiting.

Some food for thought: https://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Gas-Diesel/July-1-2017.php

dhangejr · Aug 20, 2017

off topic but in regards to some of the posts I read. If someone does many short trips 2-15 miles 3-7 times a day yhe oil change interval should probably be 5-7k miles.

RabbitGTI · Aug 20, 2017

As a public service I post this

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2340534&postcount=27

DubFamily · Aug 20, 2017

Yep, I was looking for that. The Blackstone link I posted above supports his points overall

VwPassion · Aug 20, 2017

RabbitGTI said:
As a public service I post this

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2340534&postcount=27

So each time someone add oil because his car is burning oil , according to this ,is doing damage because the new oil start again to react ( as it was when we just change oils ) with the "old" oil that is in engine ?
So.... We cant add oil because the new will "damage" the old oil because is trying to clean out surfaces from "old" oil ,but we cant let oil level low too because again we will ... damage engine !!

......speechless !!!

tdiatlast · Aug 20, 2017

^^^Obviously, the small amount of oil added would in no way cause an issue.
You must be joking...

VwPassion · Aug 20, 2017

tdiatlast said:
^^^Obviously, the small amount of oil added would in no way cause an issue.
You must be joking...

Small amount ? ...
The article not talking abount specific category of oils . The way that work the "ingredients" of any oil is the same . Consider now that are cars at nowdays that need only 3 to 3.5 liters oil . The min-max difference is around 1 liter . So we can talk for the 30-35% of oil each time you add new oil . I not think that this percent is a joke , at least not to me . My car need 4.3 liters . If was burned it down to min ,it needs 1 liter exactly for bring it up to max . Thats a rough 25% of oil . If i let oil to burn it down twice and add twice oil thats half oil .... Now rethink again what the article say about what oil do at first miles in engine , rethink the percent amount of new oil that can be added during the whole period ( especially old cars that trying to keep long periods the oils in ) that keep your oils in car until you change them and we can talk again .

20IndigoBlue02 · Aug 21, 2017

RabbitGTI said:
As a public service I post this

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2340534&postcount=27

I think Drivbiwire has his units mixed up.

the flexible service interval is up to 30,000 kilometers.

the fixed service interval is 10,000 miles.

tdiatlast · Aug 21, 2017

VwPassion said:
Small amount ? ...
The article not talking abount specific category of oils . The way that work the "ingredients" of any oil is the same . Consider now that are cars at nowdays that need only 3 to 3.5 liters oil . The min-max difference is around 1 liter . So we can talk for the 30-35% of oil each time you add new oil . I not think that this percent is a joke , at least not to me . My car need 4.3 liters . If was burned it down to min ,it needs 1 liter exactly for bring it up to max . Thats a rough 25% of oil . If i let oil to burn it down twice and add twice oil thats half oil .... Now rethink again what the article say about what oil do at first miles in engine , rethink the percent amount of new oil that can be added during the whole period ( especially old cars that trying to keep long periods the oils in ) that keep your oils in car until you change them and we can talk again .

If an engine is burning 1-2 liters of oil per oil change, the oil burning issue is much more serious than the detergent wearing issue of frequent oil changes.

With a newer engine that ISN'T burning oil, drivbiwire's advice is sound...to PREVENT an engine from ultimately burning oil! HAHA!

VwPassion · Aug 21, 2017

tdiatlast said:
If an engine is burning 1-2 liters of oil per oil change, the oil burning issue is much more serious than the detergent wearing issue of frequent oil changes.

With a newer engine that ISN'T burning oil, drivbiwire's advice is sound...to PREVENT an engine from ultimately burning oil! HAHA!

At 25k miles interval that article mention , there is no engine that will not burn oil . At least will add 2-3 times oil ,not necessary 1 liter per add . The funny at this situation is the lab reports . Keeping long intervals while add new oil in and then sending oil to lab is hilarious....

The lab will calculate the new added properties ( ex. the TBN of the new added oil is bigger than the used oil...)of the added oil w/o knowing how much percent of oil the owner did add. So so funny .... The actual correct report is when send oil to lab BEFORE add oil ,when start add oil should never send again ....

DubFamily · Aug 21, 2017

VwPassion said:
Consider now that are cars at nowdays that need only 3 to 3.5 liters oil .

Or let's consider a realistic amount like 4-4.5 liters... The only car I have ever seen that only took 3 liters of oil was a 90s Subaru Justy...

VwPassion said:
At 25k miles interval that article mention , there is no engine that will not burn oil . At least will add 2-3 times oil

This is also false.... I did 20,000 mile oil changes on my Golf TDI for 5 years and never burned a drop of oil in 170,000 miles. Did the same in my 2009 GTI as well and it burned less than 1/2 a quart in 15000-20000 miles between oil changes. I currently do 15000-20000 mile oil changes in my daughter's Jetta 2.5l and it doesn't burn a drop either.

That's just three cars, I seriously doubt they are the only three in the world that don't burn oil...

you are working from false assumptions to start with; that doesn't make Blackstone or Drivbiwire wrong.

MichaelB · Aug 21, 2017

To continue this pointless conversation we are having with our self-appointed Greek TDI oil expert. My car has no noticeable oil consumption within the factory prescribed 10k mile OCI. So what would be the benefit of me changing my oil at a shorter interval? If I pushed the OCI to a point where I noticed a drop in the oil level. Let's say 15k I would just change it then not add any more. Of course if at that time it was not practical for me to do yes I would top it up and change it at my convenience and not have a care in the world about the fresh detergency of the added oil. I think VWpassion only has a passion for being argumentative and that makes him feel like the only one that knows anything about TDI's and oil. If his car "burns down" the amount of oil he is talking about there is something more wrong than he sees. And that is enough of this ridiculous thread.

tdiatlast · Aug 21, 2017

Over 1.5 million miles of car ownership, most traded between 150-175k miles (until recently)
ALWAYS maximum recommended OCI or beyond (1987 Audi 400S, 1987 Audi Coupe, 1993 Audi S4...ALL 3 15k Mobil 1 OCI), NEVER an oil related problem, NEVER added more than .5 liter between changes, and rarely did that.
Yes, a pointless conversation...

VwPassion · Aug 21, 2017

Then all of you that really not "burn" at all oil at these high mileage cars you are lucky to live all together at one place . Maybe it s the water there , the fresh air ... Should be send some scientists over there to check the irony levels which are high as i see .
Any car is burn oil but the problem is that through texting around the internet is not the way can be proven . Throw a " i dont burn dude ..." sentence and all fixed , this cant be proven wrong ....
What a waste of time ...

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