506.01 0W-30 vs Other 5W-40 PD Oils

Trying my (pathetic) best to see how to help the 506.01 issue specifically for the V10 TDI

tditom said:

Questions:
Where did the text after the acceptance letter come from?
Any luck getting through to someone at VAG?

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1. All the text is from Herb @ ELF who I spoke to on the phone yesterday, who then offered to email me the information.

EVERYTHING from the acceptance Letter DOWN is from ELF.

2. Have to get through to VAG still. Hopefully soon will get through

tditom said:

Andy-
I'm not sure I understand the reason behind your questions regarding 506.01 meeting the 505.01 requirements.

The chart in German shows that the 506.01 oil is intended for "long-life service" on the PD motors. The 505.01 is for normal drain intervals. Isn't it implicit that 506.01 is equal to or better than 505.01 because it lasts up to 3x as long when used in the same engine? Do you disagree? If the answer is yes, please explain the chart to me. TIA.

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Tom,

I understand that I'm treading on thin ice here, as I'm a vendor and oil dealer and questions/answers will probably be interpreted as such. I hope my intent comes thru.

We've assumed that 506.01 is a super 505.01, but don't have any proof.

My first point with 506.01 vs. 505.01 is that 506.01 can go up to 2 years or 50K km in a car with an oil life monitor. It's not guaranteed for a 30,000 mile oil severe service oil change the same way 505.00 and 505.01 are designed for a severe service 1 year or 10,000 mile interval. So - there's really no need for 506.0x to be any better in performance (cleanliness, wear, etc.) - it just has to do the same thing that 505.01 will do for a longer period of time.

I spent about 45 minutes on the phone yesterday with a tech specialist at VWoA who made it very clear to me that each is considered independent of the other and intended for different applications. Yes - 506.0x is a longer drain interval spec and is used for PD TDIs - primarily in Europe. 505.01 is a 10K interval product and is the only spec known by VW to work well enough in the US. We have different equipment, different fuel, different emissions limits, different timing, etc. - plus the gent expressed frustration about how difficult it has been to get the dealer network on-line with the 505.01 - much less anything that makes it more difficult.

The very strong impression I came away with after the phone call and follow-up email is that VWoA runs the US warranty program - it's their money. They KNOW that 505.01 works here and will do what it needs to do. They DON'T KNOW that any other formulation will work here long-term -- and they're not willing to bet their bank balance on it. From that viewpoint, I understood where he was coming from.

Most of the info presented as fact has been from datasheets and sales literature. Unfortunately, there can be a number of different views of 'reality' and sales material and OEM spec sheets don't always agree.

I hope that helps.
Andy

AndyH said:

...I spent about 45 minutes on the phone yesterday with a tech specialist at VWoA who made it very clear to me that each is considered independent of the other and intended for different applications. Yes - 506.0x is a longer drain interval spec and is used for PD TDIs - primarily in Europe. 505.01 is a 10K interval product and is the only spec known by VW to work well enough in the US. We have different equipment, different fuel, different emissions limits, different timing, etc. - plus the gent expressed frustration about how difficult it has been to get the dealer network on-line with the 505.01 - much less anything that makes it more difficult.

The very strong impression I came away with after the phone call and follow-up email is that VWoA runs the US warranty program - it's their money. They KNOW that 505.01 works here and will do what it needs to do. They DON'T KNOW that any other formulation will work here long-term -- and they're not willing to bet their bank balance on it. From that viewpoint, I understood where he was coming from...

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Please forgive my skepticism toward a VWoA tech specialist. There's just been so much bad info/bad "customer service" associated with that name. So his frustration with the dealership service communications is understandable. It just is so easy to see that the distance between VAG and VWoA is much bigger than any ocean.

I understand that our engines have different timing, and different emmissions, but what different equipment are we talking about between their PD's and ours? As for fuel- ULSD addresses this, no? Maybe it hasn't been repeated on this thread, but I think we all understand that the long-life attributes of 506.xx are only applicable with ULSD (actually our new sulphur ppm is lower than Europe's IIRC).

I hope someone can make contact with VAG on this issue. What about your "Wolfsburg contact"?

AndyH said:

plus the gent expressed frustration about how difficult it has been to get the dealer network on-line with the 505.01 - much less anything that makes it more difficult.

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This is what I really do not understand. To become a dealer you have to put up a given number of very big dollars. Guarantee to stock so many dollars worth of specified parts. Guarantee to keep those parts in stock. Promise to keep so many new cars in stock. Guerantee to train mechanics. Just why the heck is there no guarantee to keep the required oil in stock? This I really do not understand. The oil is out there, but yet dealers do not seem to know what it is or where to get it. Heads should be spinning somewhere in this chain of events and legal agreements between VWofA and the dealerships.

tditom said:

Please forgive my skepticism toward a VWoA tech specialist. There's just been so much bad info/bad "customer service" associated with that name. So his frustration with the dealership service communications is understandable. It just is so easy to see that the distance between VAG and VWoA is much bigger than any ocean.

<<snip>>

I hope someone can make contact with VAG on this issue. What about your "Wolfsburg contact"?

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I understand your skepticism. I bounced up the VWoA chain a few times when trying to get info on 505.01. I gave up and went to Germany. I was directed to the gent at VWoA via Wolfsburg. I was very happy with the frank conversation and follow-up email.

My intent wasn't to get into oil chemistry, it was to understand the differences between VWAG and VWoA - since VWoA has the warranty purse here - especially in light of the recent 506.0x warranty issue.

Is it possible that your VWoA source is ignorant about 506.01? Given the communication problems apparent between the dealerships and VWoA, I can only imagine it is worse between VAG and VWoA. Maybe VAG haven't done a good job of understanding the N. American operating environment and are relying on VWoA for the source of the info? It just baffles me.

Can you respond to my earlier question on differences in equipment between NA and Europe?

506.01 is "backwards compatible" to the MINIMUM required 505.01.

My concern is:

Is it fair to say that the (only obviously so) that the v4 PD's are NOT the v10 PD's and that is why the 506.01 in Germany is called for now? The compression is not the same. It's a 10 valve hence a kinds of interior differences.

When VW SPEC'd 505.01 to the PD it was for the V4

I guess the real issue VWoA would have, is a STUPIDLY (cough!) ingrained "idea" that AMERICAN (North American=Canada aswell, eh!) HAVE TO follow a drain interval that is FIXED due to WHAT --pray tell?-- reason of 5k-5k and then every 10k.

On Engrained:

Following this Latin usage, in Medieval English people spoke of engraining something or dying in grain for dyeing cloth with it. But over time, people began to think the word really referred to the grain of the cloth, like the grain of wood, and that the word meant, not dying with a particular colour, but dying it to its very roots, colouring it throughout its whole substance.
The adjective engrained, originally describing something dyed crimson, slowly altered its sense to refer to a person whose characteristics were so firmly fixed as to be unalterable. Over time, the word changed its spelling to ingrained.

were there any german translators out there?

know your motor

Logismoi said:

506.01 is "backwards compatible" to the MINIMUM required 505.01.
We need to hear this from VAG/VWoA

My concern is:

Is it fair to say that the (only obviously so) that the v4 PD's are NOT the v10 PD's and that is why the 506.01 in Germany is called for now? The compression is not the same. It's a 10 valve hence a kinds of interior differences.

When VW SPEC'd 505.01 to the PD it was for the V4
I think you are confusing valves with cylinders (V10 means 10 cylinder engine consisting of 2 banks of 5 cyl in a V config).
The 1.9L is an inline 4 cylinder. I've never heard of a V4.

...
were there any german translators out there?

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We seen copies of these certification letters before. Dieseldorf has posted and English version to Elf, IIRC. Look in his photo gallery and you can read it in English (its a form letter, of course)

There's nothing of interest (pertaining to this discussion) in the letter.

I contacted VWoA and am awaiting a call back this morning regarding the 506.01 being backwards compatible to the min spec 505.01.

I specifically asked for something in writing and WHY, etc

tditom said:

Is it possible that your VWoA source is ignorant about 506.01?

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X2. The guy was probably annoyed by the phone call and hands out a response that is the simplest "answer" that can't get him in trouble.


Are we really so dense when it comes to interpreting the printed info I've posted above from 3 different sources. When you read 'no exceptions', I know what that means to me.

tditom said:

Given the communication problems apparent between the dealerships and VWoA, I can only imagine it is worse between VAG and VWoA.

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X2 (again). This is exactly what I observed when trying to gather info on G50, 51 and 52 oils. The people in Germany turn up their noses when referring to the USA subsidiary. You'd think, from the tone of the conversation, that the companies had no financial or legal ties. It's just ridiculous. However, I asked enough times and informed them VWoA had no clue and the folks in Germany finally delivered! Perseverance pays!!

Frankly, I think they consider the USA division to be an embarrassment based on the track record here in NAmerica.

dieseldorf said:

There's nothing of interest (pertaining to this discussion) in the letter.

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The Letter from ELF states 506.01 CRV....but it's in German. Your other letter about MOTUL does NOT mention 506.01.

Log-
Please quit posting the same image. We know what you're talking about.

It is a letter from VAG to Dr. Spitker at Elf telling him that Elf EVO 0W30 has passed the tests for VW503.00, 506.00, and 506.01 (able to be used in long-life applications for VW's gas and diesel engines). The text in bold is the wording for the label. It will cost Elf 1300 Euros. It doesn't address the issues being discussed here- is 506.01 approved for all 505.01 applications, and is it the only oil for the V10tdi in N. America like it is in Europe.

tditom said:

... Maybe it hasn't been repeated on this thread, but I think we all understand that the long-life attributes of 506.xx are only applicable with ULSD ...

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506.01 is a high TBN oil that was introduced in 2001 when the EU diesel was low sulfur (300ppm limit). IIRC the EU 50ppm fuel sulfur limit deadline was either in 2004 or 2005.

ULSD will enable longer-life from diesel oils (506.01 included) than LSD.

i'm hopeful that with ULSD my 2004 Golf PD-TDI will enjoy equal to or better than new oil performance for 20,000+ miles.

tditom said:

Log-
Please quit posting the same image. We know what you're talking about.

It is a letter from VAG to Dr. Spitker at Elf telling him that Elf EVO 0W30 has passed the tests for VW503.00, 506.00, and 506.01 (able to be used in long-life applications for VW's gas and diesel engines). The text in bold is the wording for the label. It will cost Elf 1300 Euros. It doesn't address the issues being discussed here- is 506.01 approved for all 505.01 applications, and is it the only oil for the V10tdi in N. America like it is in Europe.

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Please forgive me for re-posting the letter.

You guys are "light years ahead of me on these matters.

However,the Letter actually says CRV not EVO

-

SUNRG said:

506.01 is a high TBN oil that was introduced in 2001 when the EU diesel was low sulfur (300ppm limit). IIRC the EU 50ppm fuel sulfur limit deadline was either in 2004 or 2005.

ULSD will enable longer-life from diesel oils (506.01 included) than LSD.

i'm hopeful that with ULSD my 2004 Golf PD-TDI will enjoy equal to or better than new oil performance for 20,000+ miles.

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The ULSD came into the market in the UK well before the deadline as a result of Govt. incentives. In the early 1990's I was using ULSD in an Audi 80.

tditom said:

Is it possible that your VWoA source is ignorant about 506.01? Given the communication problems apparent between the dealerships and VWoA, I can only imagine it is worse between VAG and VWoA. Maybe VAG haven't done a good job of understanding the N. American operating environment and are relying on VWoA for the source of the info? It just baffles me.

Can you respond to my earlier question on differences in equipment between NA and Europe?

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He spoke intelligently about the operational differences between 505.01 and 506.01 and made it clear that it's all about oil life.

I'm not qualified to give a model-by-model difference, so won't go there. From other threads on this site, and varying with model, it appears that Europe got variable turbos sooner, the same engine makes higher power in Europe, ECU programming is different, injection timing appears to be retarded here to lower NOx production, oil monitoring systems still aren't here, nozzle sizes are different, fuel is different. There are certainly more, and there may be some equipment that is the same.

am i missing something here?

AndyH said:

I'm not qualified to give a model-by-model difference, so won't go there. From other threads on this site, and varying with model, it appears that Europe got variable turbos sooner, the same engine makes higher power in Europe, ECU programming is different, injection timing appears to be retarded here to lower NOx production, oil monitoring systems still aren't here, nozzle sizes are different, fuel is different. There are certainly more, and there may be some equipment that is the same.

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So the 506.01 oil is good enough for extended drains with motors that put out more power, but wouldn't protect the N American vehicles as good as 505.01?

We've covered the fuel issue in a previous post- when ULSD is available everywhere the sulphur content here will be less than Europe.

I'm still not seeing a technical reason why 506.01 doesn't go above and beyond 505.01 specs and wouldn't be "validated" by VWoA...

tditom said:

I'm still not seeing a technical reason why 506.01 doesn't go above and beyond 505.01 specs and wouldn't be "validated" by VWoA...

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T, it may come down to availability and cost. Haven't you noticed how blood pressure rises when somebody is handed a $120 repair order for an oil change using 505.01.

Also, what is the V10 torque and horsepower ratings for the USA engines compared to everywhere else

tditom said:

So the 506.01 oil is good enough for extended drains with motors that put out more power, but wouldn't protect the N American vehicles as good as 505.01?

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'Didn't say that!

tditom said:

We've covered the fuel issue in a previous post- when ULSD is available everywhere the sulphur content here will be less than Europe.

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Yup, think so.

tditom said:

I'm still not seeing a technical reason why 506.01 doesn't go above and beyond 505.01 specs and wouldn't be "validated" by VWoA...

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The warranty issue doesn't appear to have anything to do with technology, but with 'comfort' - no-one knows for sure how the oil will perform long-term in the US market, so VWoA isn't willing to bet their warranty bank account on it.

I don't disagree with you at all, Tom. From what little I've seen (still haven't seen the spec...$&*%@#) it does look like a great product. I'm not saying it wouldn't do a great job - we've seen that already.

Some of the organizational stuff sounds like a bad military exercise. "Sir? You want us to take that hill? The one that's 250 feet away? The one I can throw a rock to? No problem! Sir? You want me to take two trucks? And drive 10 miles south first? But sir - the hill is north and we're low on fuel! No Sir - don't need a reprimand or pushups - but I can throw a...No sir, not talking back sir..yes sir...we'll take two trucks and head south. When would you like us to get there? Thursday Sir?..."

It makes sense to someone, but not us. It just is what it is. Nobody asked me if I liked it.

Just stumbled on a paper that covers some of what we're looking at ('cept the warranty stuff...)

http://www.iantaylor.org.uk/papers/IMechEReview.pdfhttp://www.iantaylor.org.uk/papers/IMechEReview.pdf#search=%22pv1451%20vw%20test%22

AndyH said:

'Didn't say that!
That is what is implied by your report of the conversation with VWoA.


The warranty issue doesn't appear to have anything to do with technology, but with 'comfort' - no-one knows for sure how the oil will perform long-term in the US market, so VWoA isn't willing to bet their warranty bank account on it.
Is it just coincidence that the tdi's in Europe have the same OCI as the N.A. market when they are on the time/distance regimen and are to use 505.01 for this? And these same engines are to use 506.01 when they are on the long life regimen? So if a user chooses to use 506.01, and stick to the time distance schedule (while under warranty), what reason would VWoA have to deny warranty? ...
It makes sense to someone, but not us. It just is what it is. Nobody asked me if I liked it.

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It can only be willful ignorance on VWoA's part. That contact you made must not be willing to consult with his counterparts at VAG. There is no way.

Can you pm me your contact at VWoA. I would like to try...

Tom,

Because policy in the US requires 505.01 ONLY and 506.01 doesn't meet 505.01.

A rather silly parallel: The US postal service is capable of shipping bottles of acid in cardboard boxes anywhere in the world. They have the system in place, the trucks and airplanes, and trained people. But they won't. It's not about the capability of the system to ship the acid, it's a decision made to not introduce this product into their system.

One of the qustions you've asked is about the difference between the US and Euro equipment. Please take a quick scan of the paper I posted a link to. It's a view of the oil world from the perspective of Shell and the BP/Castrol's R&D lab in Panghbourne, England.

Near the end of the paper is one of the differences between the different markets - notice the fuel economy test descriptions? See the difference between the US and Euro tests? That's just one difference.

Please don't read-into what I've reported from VWoA. No one said that 506 wasn't good stuff - no one said that it wouldn't work in the US. From a technical standpoint, I don't disagree with anything you've said.

The SOLE purpose of the conversation was to discover VWoA's view of engine warranty.

Pretend you're in charge of US warranty at VWoA - it's your paycheck on the line: It's the late '90s and you've just started selling TDIs in the US. (It doesn't matter when they started selling TDIs for this example.) These engines have a long history of running hundreds of thousands of miles. You start replacing engines under warranty between 40,000 and 60,000 miles - rings are stuck, power is down, wear is up. It's costing big money! The US petroleum oil is not good enough! Quick! A TSB! 5W-30 synthetic that meets VW 505.00! Oops - new TSB - it's got to be a 5W-40 synthetic that meets 505.00.

(Watch, shaking, as CNN announces that Benz was hit with a $32 million class-action lawsuit in the US, with another to follow in Canada, because they didn't properly notify owners that the oil life recommendations were based on synthetic oil...)

Fast forward to the small oil pan Passat with the 1.8T...same thing - sludge, engine failures, $$$, TSB - synthetic 502.00, cut OCIs in half, and pay for an extended warranty!

VW has taken some hits in the US market because of oil requirements. They've found that 505.01 works here. They have the warranty under control. It's proven and safe. And they still haven't gotten all of the dealers 'in line' with requirements -- why in the world would they want to add another oil spec?

Andy

It will be interesting to see what happens now that medic92 has reported an engine failure in another thread and he states that he has used 506 01.