2002 jetta tdi timing belt replaced - won't start

You or someone, or your mechanic should really check the timing with locking tools. And bleed the IP properly.

Chance is your mechanic won't look at the PDF. Car mechanics tend to avoid information that is different from the way they have always done things.

Don't listen to things like: injectors, IP are faulty etc. Or your car had engine damage that causes the non-start. Tilting engine, haha.

The Volvo guy is probably an Ace Volvo Gas technician.
But that has only about 10% relevance towards working on VW TDI Diesels.

Where else are you going to find a 70,000 mile Mk4 TDI ?
Lotta guys would give kings ransom for that.

Politely or Impolitely demand that he stop all further tiddlings and experiments on your car.
Have it towed home.
Contact nearest local TDI Guru from the list on here, or make a post/request in the Mk4 section.

He has greatly surpassed clueless at this point.
The job was above his skill set and he shouldn't have taken it in.
VW Diesels should only be serviced by VW Diesel aficionados, especially timing belt service.

Live and learn and chalk it up to experience.
best wishes

A few days ago, I ran my ALH Vanagon out of fuel.

The tank only had about a gallon and half in it. So, as I was going up a rather long hill with lots of curves, apparently it sucked in some air. Fortunately, I had enough speed to coast into the parking lot of a semi-truck garage and repair service.

From the time I got out of the Van, bummed some fuel, and got it going was less than 30 minutes. That time frame included washing diesel fuel cologne off my hands, cleaning up the mess, and BSing with the mechanic that was so gracious to loan me a gallon of fuel. Also, I did not have a Mityvac Hand Pump or anything similar and no one helped me! Pliers, screw driver, 17mm wrench, plastic cup, paper towels, fuel, and patience are the items I used to get it going.

Point is, priming an ALH TDI is not rocket science. However, if the timing is off, even without a fueling issue, it is going to be a challenge to get it going.

I think setting up a temporary fueling means as suggested, is the best approach at this point. In fact, a hanging IV such as when doing a diesel purge, will allow at least two injector lines to be bled by simply loosening the nut on the injector,,, fuel will flow thru the IP flushing out air! Rotate the engine about 180 degrees and two more injector lines can be bled,,,, try it some time!

I also just had to say,
spraying dope into a 70k TDI that came in running - after doing a TB service - is worse than hunting for a magic button under the dash.

Thats how you work on a free tractor that sat out in a field for 20 years.
what the fugk
lol

oilhammer said:

I hate stories like this. How can a person who clearly has some experience not have a scan tool that works on these? TDIs have been around since 1996, and VAG products with OBD longer than that.

The basics of the belt change are not drastically different from what they have been since the 1970s. Certainly, at some point and time, this guy has had an old diesel Volkswagen rumble through his shop!

It sounds to me like he is in over his head, and I say that with as much respect as I can. I'd tow the car out of there and let someone who knows what they are doing check it out, and hope it isn't too late and something is major tooefed.

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^^ This ^^

You'd be surprised at the number of people who do 'diesel work' and don't own something as simple as a Vag-Com. Or maybe you wouldn't. How anyone can flounder around 'old schooling it' unnecessarily on these is beyond me, especially when a Vag-Com is so cheap.

The first time I had my timing belt done, many years ago, the VW only mechanic of 30 years at his VW only garage didn't own a Vag-Com and said he never saw the need. It was after the TB was done I learned this so I brought my car to Herm for the dynamic timing, whereby he promptly blew a gasket about the shoddy work.

I don't care if they have 100 years of experience under their belt, if they don't have the tools or are saying things like 'tilting the engine', my car would be removed so fast their head would spin. AndyBees is correct, these engines are so simple there is no reason it should take so long to correct anything on an engine that came in running fine. Anyone wanna bet they blame the IP and say it has to be replaced?

Get your car away from them since neither you nor they know what they are doing. If they keep it, you are most likely going to have a much larger repair bill for fixing their mess. There are far too many people in the northeast that could and would do quality work properly.

Yes, find another mechanic ASAP !!

Do this before they destroy your engine

Perhaps this guy is confused. BMW & Saab motors are on a slight tilt,
of course that has nothing to do with your motor or his problems !!!

If I were you I would be irate

RE: All the hysteria

Please, bear with me, and suppress your natural urges to go to the sky is falling.

There are several reasons I am not, as such, irate.
-I have alternative transportation (re: Wifes car)
-I don't believe in stress, it gives you a bad gut and makes your hair fall out.
-I believe he is honest and will make things right should things go awry.
-This is a learning curve for me, as I haven't invested to much time in taking care of my car (bad me), so this might just kick me to start taking better care
- I had to get the timing belt done at some point, and I hadn't hit the 80k miles but while I was in for inspection, they seriously recommended one considering its age, which it appears was a good thing, the serpentine belt was quite bad off. (no I don't have a pic, but he has it for me to take pics of)
- he is known to me as family mechanic, and I have had no problems with him to date, so I give him some slack.

Yes, I understand engine problems can occur should things go badly with the timing belt change. Had I the ability to have this event occur again and choose again where to get my timing belt done, I probly would have gone to someone else with knowledge of it, but I cannot at this point, so no point in belabouring the obvious. Don't beat someone up for my poor communication skills, and lack of care for my vehicle, and circumstances I am now in, which really make it hard for me to alter them.

It will be easier to solve the issues than to tell me things that are not helpful.

I understand your passion, and were I a car enthusiast I would share it, but I am a driver, and like my car for many reasons, so I will keep her around as long as possible. Balanced with the ability to afford it.

I imagine I will, at some point, need to bring it to one of the approved shops and get thier studied opinion on maintenance items and fixes I need to do to keep a low milage aged car running for many years to come.

But for now, A timing belt job issue needs to get done, and I have confidence that if the issue is found, he can do the job with enough information.

Part of our concern (not hysteria at all) is the way it's being handled, which we have seen all too often and usually with disastrous results. For instance, were the stretch bolts replaced like was required? They are not an option to replace, they must be replaced or you're repairing the block when the ear snaps off. There are a hundred little things that can get missed and often get missed when someone very familiar with gas engines works on a TDI, which is why the writeup is so critical to follow.

I have been called to established repair garages to figure out why TDI's won't run, and in every case, it was the ASE certified master mechanic messing things up because they didn't follow procedure or took a shortcut, and they all made sure to reference their credentials when I show them how it was done improperly. One time I had to go back twice for an ALH timing belt after loaning them my Vag-Com, the procedures printed out and bound, and my timing belt tools. After a mechanic screwed it up for a second time I fixed it right in front of them and it fired as soon as I touched the key. So just because the mechanic has a garage and has been in business for years doesn't mean a whole lot in my book. I know many backyard, non-ASE, non-guru, Harbor Freight wielding shadtree mechanics that I'd trust over many ASE certified ones. That's not to say they're all bad, just that some think it gives them all knowing powers.

The other part of our concern is that it's such a simple job that, when done correctly, has little chance of not working when it's done. That the guy is concerned about engine tilt angle and not what he did to the car speaks volumes. The very first thing that should have been done is to recheck what he did do.

I don't see anyone beating you up for your communication skills, perhaps I missed it.

But it's your car, and ultimately you are the one that will have to live with the aftermath. We are just trying to minimize your cost outlay and potential repairs on the car. We don't know your situation, but no one wants to have to repair their car after simple maintenance like this and no one I know can afford it.

My communication of what he is telling me he did mainly. He did rattle off what he did, and how he did it, but unfortunately I am unable to remember information except for a few things etc like tilted engines and fuel issue at end of job, and silicone etc.
I also may be misrepresenting his knowledge, lord knows from what I said, and everyone responded, and so on.

I am going to be contacting someone who messaged me earlier this week and might be down this way to check on it. Hopefully, the job was done to the 90% and we only need to do the 10%. but I won't know till I know.

jharty said:

- he is known to me as family mechanic, and I have had no problems with him to date, so I give him some slack.

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I am Mechanic and I have many family's that bring cars to me .
But when they ask me can you work on American cars I tell them I do not work on those cars, I work on German cars.
I call this being honest Family mechanic, not just take any job to make a money.

I have people traveling 3-7 hours form east Texas to me to preformed good job. They have good mechanics over there but 99% of them works on trucks and they are honest and tell those people they do not have experience on German cars and they do not want to mess something on them cars.

I will tell you one thing , this guy does not know how to work on TDI and he should not take this job.

jharty said:

Hopefully, the job was done to the 90% and we only need to do the 10%.

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It could have been done to the 99% and only the injection timing was off... or it could have been done 100% wrong and you may need a new engine soon... In any case, the use of starting fluid should never have been attempted...

Good luck,

Yuri

I was in contact with Keaton85 via phone who I asked to conference call in with my mechanic.

The Update: (copamundial (and others as well) appears to be correct, fuel issue was chasing the wrong track)
The Bottle Fuel Procedure was done, and the injectors cracked, air bubbles were evacuated through the lines, the injector 1 and I believe 2-4 were cracked as well, were bleeding, but the engine did not run.

That says the timing is off.

He went back to the instructions from the website PDF and compared notes, and described it all to Keaton85 (the major points of locking the cam, pin in the injection pump with zero rattle to indicate the right pin slot which would have otherwise had some wiggle in it otherwise, TDC and so on, but not neccessarily in that order of course) and while no one can be certain without being there in person, it sounded as if both were in aggreement as to the major points that would cause such an issue have been followed and done correctly.

He has someone with more experience in these engines coming over to take a look and will report back in later.

Keaton graciously has offered to stop by at some point if things aren't resolved, but we will know more later.

Edit: Forgot to mention the Lobes Up, was checked.

It's good they did the remote fuel source testing.

Sort of feel like he still has missed the mark somewhere in the parameters.
Anyway ... i'll share this ... it might help and might not.
But the guesswork of any injection timing variable can be taken out the final equation once the parameters are definite spot-on.

The actual fine tune of the fuel injection timing can be done after that , the old skool way just like the older VW Diesels - with a dial indicator .

1996-2004
1Z / AHU and ALH VW Faktry Spec is 0.65mm - 0.75mm with #1 at TDC.
0.70 - 0.72mm is target

Here is a thread with some details and pics
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=422565

It would provide one more key item as confirmed before it goes into a full blown witch hunt with part$ flying on and off.

Jharty , would it be impossible for you to go to the shop and have them illustrate for you how all the locks and pins fit exactly - with the crank/flywheel at exactly #1 TDC ?

#1 TDC First ... Locks and Pins Second . Not vice-versa.
No wiggles or compensates.

Almost and close - is not kosher.

Everything needs to be done by rotating forward only, with only the crank bolt or flywheel. Some will use other sprockets in between because its less task.
The crank pulls everything on the belt when engine running - best to replicate that all the way through and through.

Small deficiencies here and there add up quickly.
Simple machines to those properly trained - complex to those less familiar.
Especially gas car veterans.

Absolutely pointless to run the dial indicator setting if the basic parameters are not 100 % . 100 %

These are kind words, no harsh intended.

As I have to work during normal business hours, it is hard to do so. I am relying on other resources to assist him, one is a forum poster, and another is a more experienced diesel mechanic up the road from him.

I will get an update soon, but I believe since I didn't get the all clear, it is still being looked at etc.

lol pay expenses plus a few bucks and I will come fix it. My NB now is getting 70 plus miles per gallon so it won't cost an arm and a leg.. Love road trips. Yes I am a "Trusted Mechanic" and tdi guru. In and out in under 4 hours I bet.
Repairs at Richards and
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=376666

Jharty , has any progress been made on your TDI ?
Hopefully all is well now.
Share an update with us.

Probably, the outcome wasn't good so he didn't want to post,

Sorry for the lack of updates, till now, there was no updates. And as this thread has proven to me, further throwing fuel on the fire would just have uhm, caused more angst amongst some. So I waited, and last night was rewarded.

He had spoken with Keaton during one of my last updates and they went through the general questions. A question was asked in regards to the pin location on the fuel injector pump, my mechanic had the pin in the injector pump snug, no wiggle, appearances were that the correct pin location had been selected. (shortened for sake of lack of memory in what passed back and forth between keaton and mechanic)

the fuel injector EDITUMP ended up being the key component in the reason why it was not working. The pin was in the wrong slot, and hence out of time.

After going back to the fuel injector EDITUMP which he correctly deduced was the only component preventing the car from starting, he dismantled down to the injector EDITUMP and found the correct injector EDITUMP pin location, put it back together and viola it started and ran.

The knowledge you guys provided was very helpful to him, and a learning experience.

But, it is now at a happy ending stage, I should be able to pick it up on Tuesday night after he does any last minute items to finish it back up etc.

To help you with any future discussions, learn the lingo, part names, etc.

Example: Injector is not the Injection Pump. With the engine in your car, there are four "injectors" connected to the Injector Pump via four high pressure steel lines. The Injector Pump is what your mechanic was having an issue inserting the Pin (tool) as part of the procedure to establish Top Dead Center (TDC).

The approximate correct position of the proper place to insert the Pin is at about the 1:00 O'clock spot. Using a mechanics mirror and good light helps tremendously with the procedure. Of course, setting the flywheel at TDC is the first step!

Oddly, I've looked for that "false" place to insert the Pin and seems it stays hidden because I've never found it!

Sorry, I am at work, and the reply I had written got erased a few times, so I got hasty in my last written response.

Thanks for the update Jharty.
Glad he / they were able to get things right.

Think i would rather have a housewife do my timing belt parameters than a salty weathered gasoline engine mechanic. It takes a very sharp precision oriented mind to make the switch from gas to diesel on a short order.
Otherwise its usually a long learning curve.
The housewife has no prior mechanical ego.

Post date the check by the amount of time your car has been in his bondage.
lol

Does he have VagCom to finalize the Injection Timing ?
Or will he be using a dial indicator ?
Or just nothing

It changes with a new belt , and needs verification/setting.
Regardless of his answer or claim to that question, take the car to someone else and have it verified with VagCom.
MPG and Cold Weather Starts are depending on it to be in spec.

Baron VonZeppelin said:

i would rather have a housewife do my timing belt

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Well... that depends on whether she's the type of housewife who can follow a recipe or the type who uses it as a point of departure for her imagination...


Yuri

Baron VonZeppelin said:

Thanks for the update Jharty.
Glad he / they were able to get things right.

Think i would rather have a housewife do my timing belt parameters than a salty weathered gasoline engine mechanic. It takes a very sharp precision oriented mind to make the switch from gas to diesel on a short order.
Otherwise its usually a long learning curve.
The housewife has no prior mechanical ego.

Click to expand...

That's insulting to many of us that can and do learn.

AndyBees said:

Oddly, I've looked for that "false" place to insert the Pin and seems it stays hidden because I've never found it!

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If you know what the IP's hub look like (like you do), you won't find it and will find it impossible to insert the pin in the wrong place ;-).

All help was welcomed, and it did help my mechanic, and I appreciate it. I believe help can be obtained without just removing something from the hands of someone who was asking for help.

I understand sometimes experience shows that the end may be disasterous in the wrong hands. and in the right circumstances, I might have been a bit more anxious. But, in this particular instance, I had no overriding need for my car at specific time due to alternate transportation and my lack of driving need in general (walk to work etc). I believe the (paraphrasing) 'ZOMG GET IT OUT OF THERE NOW' might have been a bit over the top, but some brought it back down to normal level and proceeded with good help. I believe all the assistance weather chicken littling or not was well intentioned, so I got no real issue, other than my own internet firewalls ability to filter through the noise

keep on keeping on, do what works for you, and this board has served the community well.

Sidenote: I sent along a vagcom timing thread on the last part of the timing procedure to him yesterday, so I will be checking in today and potentially going there early to assist with my vagcom toys if he didn't use the guy down the streets resources (software, diesel mechanic etc)

Another SideNote:
I do need to have the car looked at, considering its age and milage, there is considerable rust on the under components, and parts in the engine that may suffer due to age rather than hard riding milage.

From the perspective of the ALH engine, body etc, this is where a practiced eye to these vehicles would be better served by me taking it elsewhere.

although I need closer rather than farther away, looking at the map, the two closest shops are 50-60 minute drives away etc.
Anyone in the seacoast region or under 30 minutes from dover? *ponder*

Send a PM to PeterV. I'm sure that he will give your car a good check out. He's nearby.

Good story, with a happy ending like the Gospel, but I gotta say from the get go it sounded like the pump was off.