Why you should buy a Diesel with a DSG transmission

mech644 said:

Corrosive oil? Please elaborate.

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They tried a synthetic oil but it blew up in their face. It was a fairly serious recall in this part of the world.

Recall Campaign number: 34F6
What are the defects?
Due to electrolysis in the gearbox, the sulphur constituents in the synthetic oil can separate off. These accumulations settle between the conductor paths of the electronics in the form of conductive particles and can therefore cause an electrical short circuit and the gearbox fuse could blow. Should this happen, the clutch will fully open due to power supply failure, causing the vehicle to roll to a stop if in motion.
What are the hazards?
In the majority of cases, the fault occurs when the engine is started with the vehicle stationary. If the fuse blows while the vehicle is in motion, however, a sudden loss of power at the wheels could in certain circumstances occur while the vehicle is being driven. This may pose a hazard to the vehicle occupants and other road users. All other functions of the vehicle (steering, braking, etc.) remain fully active.
More...
Cars that had DQ200 trannies made between 30th May 2011 and 5th November 2012 came with G-052-512-A2 mineral based oil already while those made from the 6th November 2012 came with the synthetic oil which needed to be replaced.

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I have a DSG transmission, I think there are only two legit (for me mind you) reasons why my view of it is a bit more negative:

1. It is suspicious to me that the DSG transmission is thought to be tougher then the manual and yet VAG doesn't recommend towing with it. I wonder if its the same or different then the DSG you see in VW commercial vehicles and pickups in other countries.
2. The final drive ratio isn't the same as a manual.

Otherwise, its probably the best automatic transmission I've ever owned. The technology is getting pretty well accepted in the big-rigs so I'll give it a pass.

cowgirlkaboom said:

I have a DSG transmission, I think there are only two legit (for me mind you) reasons why my view of it is a bit more negative:
1. It is suspicious to me that the DSG transmission is thought to be tougher then the manual and yet VAG doesn't recommend towing with it. I wonder if its the same or different then the DSG you see in VW commercial vehicles and pickups in other countries.
2. The final drive ratio isn't the same as a manual.
Otherwise, its probably the best automatic transmission I've ever owned. The technology is getting pretty well accepted in the big-rigs so I'll give it a pass.

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The general consensus is American Lawyers are worse. In Europe the tow rating is higher.

I don't get the lower final drive either. I'm just trusting the engineers had a good reason for that.

Ol'Rattler said:

You pretty much nailed it. Other than that, the only real reason is that you have a bum knee and can't push a clutch petal.

It just kills me how much drama folks attach to driving a clutch. Lets see: "Driving a clutch in stop and go traffic is just so difficult". What complete nonsense. I do it every day with my SMF and have never had a issue with "rowing" the gears.

I guess that if you are a man and trying to grow a vagina,you might have issues with a manual transmission.

Of course my wife, who is not a man and not trying to grow a vagina which she already has has no problem with driving a manual.

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I have a very hard time wrapping my head around the fact that people think it is "manly" to drive a manual.

It seems to me these people had a hard time picking it up or something, it's a pretty simple thing to do. Or do you have to compensate for the other stick in your life? lol

D.Eightch said:

I have a very hard time wrapping my head around the fact that people think it is "manly" to drive a manual.
It seems to me these people had a hard time picking it up or something, it's a pretty simple thing to do. Or do you have to compensate for the other stick in your life? lol

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Bar has been set low.

Used to be it was hunting and fishing for food, building a cabin with your own two hands, and providing for and protecting your family.

Now its operating a common machine interface like a stick shift and not shopping at walmart.

Article in today's Wall Street Journal; 7% of cars and trucks sold in 2014 had manual transmissions. In 1980 it was 35%.

I think the number of cars with manuals has been pretty stable for a while. I wonder how much of that change is because of trucks almost universally going to automatics.

I had a friend drive me home from an eye appointment the other day, in my car. He's a truck driver, mostly medium duty trucks driven locally. He mentioned he hadn't been in any vehicle with a manual for a long time. Of course he had no problems.

I got tired of shifting all the time in my last manual and it was a very slick five speed. I eventually just used first to third to fifth most of the time as it did the job nearly as well with less knee action.

My 7-speed DSG is in 4th gear by the time it takes to cross the intersection after leaving a green light, and fifth or sixth shortly after; I could never do that manually and wonder why anyone would want to bother trying?

It's just progress. I'm more interested in why Ford has dropped their (DSG-equivalent) Powershift in the Focus and gone back to a conventional automatic. A Ford manager told me they had failed to advise customers on the quirks of the dual-clutch design.

Kiwi_ME said:

I'm more interested in why Ford has dropped their (DSG-equivalent) Powershift in the Focus and gone back to a conventional automatic. A Ford manager told me they had failed to advise customers on the quirks of the dual-clutch design.

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From what I've read here in the US that transmission was a fail train.

I'm in Italy at the moment, and I was taking a walk this morning in the neighbourhood I'm staying in (Aventino, in Rome). I've noticed that most of the Bluemotion TDIs and non-TDIs I've seen are DSG. Only one of the several I saw this morning was manual. Noting a few more automatics in other brands as well. Even the bus that took us on a tour to Norcia and Assisi was automatic.

I rented a Ford Focus hatch a few yeas ago, drove it about 1500 miles over
5 days. That had the Ford DSG... it was OK... but it was connected to a gut
less normally aspirated 4 banger gas engine. You had to wind-it-out, make
it scream like it was going to explode to pass a car, yet you where going
no where in a hurry, lack luster. The transmission was not so much an issue.
However Ford Focus Forum has threads about why the VW DSG is better
than the ford power-shift.

I have read reports from experts that CV transmissions are getting better.
My only experience was with a rental Nissan Versa a few years ago. It was
pure s**t.... just awful, hunting, slipping, making very strange bad bad
sounding noises that would make me very nervous if I owned that pile of
junk. Since it was a rental, it funny how bad it sounded. Again the engine
was weak so the poor CVT only accentuated how lame that transmission
was. Remember some drag cars still go down the strip with a two speed
power-glides, albeit modified and with high stall torque converters.


My friend and his wife both owned late model VW's. He had a Golf TDI MK6
w/ manual and she had a VW GTI w/ DSG. They both put 80-90K miles on
them. They sold both 6 months ago. His turbo blew up and took out the
DSG. After repair it was just not right. Her GTI needed new injectors all
the time due to known carbon issues (although covered under extended
warranty it was PIA). His wife got a new Honda Accord, loaded, V6 with
I believe a CVT Auto transmission. That is a nice looking ride. He says the
CVT transmission is nice. I trust his opinion. He got a Ram 1500 R/T Truck.
It has ZF 8 speed automatic. That trans comes in 9 speed as well. These
are amazing examples of modern automatic transmission engineering
technology. The point is the right Transmission for that engine and vehicle
is key. Once size does not fit all, and all designs have some advantages
and disadvantages.

As far as what a "regular automatic" is, the lines are being blurred. The old
turbo 350/400 days are gone. Now "automatics" have a crazy number of gears,
6, 7, 8 or 9 speeds. The Acura Legends I owned, +20 years ago old technology
had automatics shifting fast and very hard. They were only 4 speed solenoid
shifted. Behind DOHC, 4V, V6 power it was a good match. It could chirp tires
going into second. I was impressed. It was my first automatic I had owned...
all my cars before where manual. As a kid my parents had automatics, so I
knew the feel of the early slush boxes. However most autos have solenoid
computer controlled shifting. I dislike the old slush boxes for feel, fun and
performance. However those are long gone.

Yes, the new Mazdas have 6-speed conventional autos and still obtain very good fuel economy. VW made a choice years ago to go with the DSG, and to their credit have done a pretty good job. One fundamental difference with the Ford Powershift is that it uses geared electric motors for shifting while VW uses hydraulics. I think that loss of actuator speed makes it far more difficult to design responsive firmware when the preselected gear is incorrectly predicted. I think Ford are persisting with the Powershift however, in other markets and car models.
Personally, as a mechanical engineer, I'm a bit uncomfortable with the fact that the DSG core technology, including the dry clutches in the 7-speed model, is based on conventional manual transmissions. I would guess the DSG shifts about 10 times more frequently than I would if I were driving a manual, yet it's still supposed to last 200,000 km before a clutch assembly is required, and another 100,000 further. There is no gear oil service interval on the 7-speed, only possible because the hydraulic section is separate.
But it may not matter, IC engines in cars are destined for the scrapheap within the next two decades and we will need far fewer gear ratios with electric motors.

Kiwi_ME said:

But it may not matter, IC engines in cars are destined for the scrapheap within the next two decades and we will need far fewer gear ratios with electric motors.

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Yeah, right. Seems I've been hearing this for the last 30 years.

I dunno my EV ranger goes farther and runs cooler with the 5 speed than it did with the A4ld

......perhaps it's just me.........

.......but the meshing of well-designed gears via triple cone type synchros couples with a low effort progressive clutch/flywheel connection fits this sailor's psyche to a Tee.........

I know the various automatics are tech city. They still lack the feel (OK control) of the manual shifted transmission.

De guispitus non desputandem.

ez

My wife made me fly to Huston and drive her CC back to Colorado through an ice storm, just so she could get the car she wanted with a 6MT.. Neigh impossible to locate a 6MT Sedan.

My parents talked trash on manual cars my entire childhood, and then when I was a teen my mom had no choice but to drive my VW around for a few months.. Next thing you know, they go buy a new car with a manual transmission for the first time in my life... they must of forgot how much fun it was to drive a manual over the years because all there opinions on them suddenly evaporated and my parents would argue over who's turn it was to drive it.

My sister begs to drive my cars because she misses having a manual transmission..

Its not manly, girly or whatever.. its just personal preference, and the simplest way I can put it is "do you like driving your car or do you like your car driving you?", there is no wrong answer.

The 3 most important women in my life have all shown a preference to manual cars.. dont think its to compensate for any testosterone deficiencies.. With a manual transmission you become one with your machine, shifting becomes instinctive, you dont need to pay attention to any readout to know how fast your going or what your engine is doing.. yes I can never shift as fast as a DSG but I always know how the vehicle feels and what I am planing on doing next..

Ive owned one automatic, it was crap, I hated it and vowed to never make that mistake again, but here I am with my eyes on a touareg and the biggest hurdle to adding it to my fleet, I cant get one with a manual transmission, or even a DSG.. sigh, compromises really suck... get what you want and f what anyone else's opinion is.

A "slushbox" is called that for a good reason and I've always preferred the 13 manuals I've owned over the 5 conventional automatics. The DSG however, the subject of this thread, doesn't suffer from that disconnected feel, nor does it lose power to a torque convertor on kickdown.
In the end, a multi-ratio transmission is only present on our internal combustion cars to overcome the compromises of the piston engine implementation of the Otto or Diesel cycle.
There is nothing wrong with voluntarily contributing intelligence and physical effort to help that system work better and even enjoying it, but perhaps you might wonder if early motorists also lamented the demise of manual ignition advance, fuel mixture and radiator airflow controls as well? Or, perhaps it was considered silly to do things that can be automated?

One day the manual transmission will be completely gone, and for that I am glad we have the DSG to replace it with.. but sigh, I am doing my best to resist the tides.. anyone else notice how all music now days suck? now get off my lawn.

launch control is pretty awesome

I like the ultra fast shift from 1st to second when I am hyper mileing. Its almost undetectable and quick. Really gets the vehicle rolling just a bit and jumps you right up quickly. More and more now they are tuning the fuel map and optimizing the transmissions together, but only the dsg, and new autos so that the torque curve is either in the most economic range or in the best power range. I am impress now with the newer superduty transmission tuneing, working very well.
After all I am trying to get 30,000 lbs from point a to point b quickly, cheaply, and easily. Playing with my "stick" all day is not one of my goals. You may like to play with your shifter, but some of us gave up our marbles, tops, and pickup sticks long ago and moved on.



The dsg has improved and getting better all the time. The move from the wet clutch to the dry cluth improved the fluid losses on the spinning mass, so now its down to the little hydraulic pump loss, which is getting smaller and smaller. Just as they replaced the power steering pumps with electric assisted steering, the dsg will advance to the point the losses will be nearly unmeasurable. They already are faster so its only a short time. Only 10% of cars sold in the US are manual and decreasing fast.

If I can't post something proactive, I have decided not to post. My original post would have caused a lot of but hurt which helps nobody.

DSG VS a manual? All I can really say is I prefer a manual because of the indisputable common sense that goes with it.

In the process of buying a Audi A3 2.0T quattro and the only choice you have is DSG. I will keep my Golf SEL TDI 6MT none the less because I simply don't want to give up on the 3 pedal experience. I simply enjoy shifting my own, despite the 'advantages' of the DSG. VW and Audi cars are definitely not cheap to own and adding the additional cost of DSG service doesn't make it any cheaper.

This isn't a contest. Buy what you wish. Stop trying to validate your choices and preferences to strangers. Silly comparisons of manual transmissions to power windows and air conditioning are just that...silly. If rolling my windows up and down all day gave me as much pleasure as driving a manual transmission, I'd have those too. For many, driving a stick is an experience, not a task.

The Audi A3 will be my 'broken foot' car. It's something to have if I break a foot or if I know I have long day of stop and go traffic ahead. If I could get a manual A3, I would. Then I would buy a cheap Kia with auto to fill in the automatic gap.

I did have to drive my Mercedes for a few weeks four years ago after surgery on my left knee. I actually took delivery of my '12 Golf in that time, and a friend had to drive it home for me. It sat in the garage for three weeks before I could drive it. So maybe there's a reason to keep a car with an automatic around. Of course I could rent one if the need arose again.

I often wonder if someone riding with the world's best manual transmission driver

Is as impressed with the smoothness and skill as one might think?

Random_Vibration said:

In the process of buying a Audi A3 2.0T quattro and the only choice you have is DSG. I will keep my Golf SEL TDI 6MT none the less because I simply don't want to give up on the 3 pedal experience. I simply enjoy shifting my own, despite the 'advantages' of the DSG. VW and Audi cars are definitely not cheap to own and adding the additional cost of DSG service doesn't make it any cheaper.

This isn't a contest. Buy what you wish. Stop trying to validate your choices and preferences to strangers. Silly comparisons of manual transmissions to power windows and air conditioning are just that...silly. If rolling my windows up and down all day gave me as much pleasure as driving a manual transmission, I'd have those too. For many, driving a stick is an experience, not a task.

The Audi A3 will be my 'broken foot' car. It's something to have if I break a foot or if I know I have long day of stop and go traffic ahead. If I could get a manual A3, I would. Then I would buy a cheap Kia with auto to fill in the automatic gap.

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I find it almost comical that the comment in bold is used over and over again, on countless threads, as a deal-breaker on a car purchase. If you have any mechanical aptitude at all and do the 40k DSG services yourself, the "additional cost" of a DSG is nearly insignificant over the life of the car.

The whole point of this thread was not to validate anyone's choices and preferences to strangers (which, by the way, is exactly what you are doing), but merely to point out that there are positive aspects to buying something that doesn't have "three pedals".

For the record, I prefer a manual transmission too, but I settled for a DSG on it's merits as a high-tech gearbox that has been proven many times over on the racing circuits of Europe.

Random_Vibration said:

In the process of buying a Audi A3 2.0T quattro and the only choice you have is DSG. I will keep my Golf SEL TDI 6MT none the less because I simply don't want to give up on the 3 pedal experience. I simply enjoy shifting my own, despite the 'advantages' of the DSG. VW and Audi cars are definitely not cheap to own and adding the additional cost of DSG service doesn't make it any cheaper.

This isn't a contest. Buy what you wish. Stop trying to validate your choices and preferences to strangers. Silly comparisons of manual transmissions to power windows and air conditioning are just that...silly. If rolling my windows up and down all day gave me as much pleasure as driving a manual transmission, I'd have those too. For many, driving a stick is an experience, not a task.

The Audi A3 will be my 'broken foot' car. It's something to have if I break a foot or if I know I have long day of stop and go traffic ahead. If I could get a manual A3, I would. Then I would buy a cheap Kia with auto to fill in the automatic gap.

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Well I'd love to be able to afford an Audi as a "broken foot" car but alas I can't. Both my Mk VII Golf TSI and my wife's TDI wagon are manual. So if I break a foot, I'll either have to rent or drive my son's '05 Passat TDI with 285k km, rust, noisy CV joints, etc. while he drives my Golf.

I think I'll rent

akjdouglass said:

I find it almost comical that the comment in bold is used over and over again, on countless threads, as a deal-breaker on a car purchase. If you have any mechanical aptitude at all and do the 40k DSG services yourself, the "additional cost" of a DSG is nearly insignificant over the life of the car.

The whole point of this thread was not to validate anyone's choices and preferences to strangers (which, by the way, is exactly what you are doing), but merely to point out that there are positive aspects to buying something that doesn't have "three pedals".

For the record, I prefer a manual transmission too, but I settled for a DSG on it's merits as a high-tech gearbox that has been proven many times over on the racing circuits of Europe.

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I find your comment rather comical because I am a Mechanical Engineer who used to design automotive electro-mechanical components before moving on to designing tactical and strategic weapons components. Please spare me your diatribe about ability because I don't think you come from a position to judge that. I've literally have been under hundreds of cars and trucks and had to turn wrenches in support of part development. I enjoyed working on development parts and vehicles. I don't enjoy working on my own cars. I only do it when I feel that I can't rely on a technican to do it to my satisfaction. Knowing how to do a job doesn't translate to wanting to do a job. A good skilled tech will bang out a job faster and better than I most of the time.

Mechanical aptitude does not make the cost of DSG fluid any cheaper. It still is an added maintenance cost and I don't consider my time as free. Yours may be and I'll let you fill in the blanks.

I was not justifying my preference but stating them. I was clearly stating that I didn't choose either or but both. A justification is an argument to suggest one choice is superior than the other. I made no such statement. I clearly said buy what you wish. What part of that didn't you get? You seem to make logical leaps to justify your ends.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I did have to drive my Mercedes for a few weeks four years ago after surgery on my left knee. I actually took delivery of my '12 Golf in that time, and a friend had to drive it home for me. It sat in the garage for three weeks before I could drive it. So maybe there's a reason to keep a car with an automatic around. Of course I could rent one if the need arose again.

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I had a hip injury and had to reduce the stress I placed on it. I had to do less walking on the job and drove an Tiguan. The Tiguan wasn't the most exciting car to own but for a couple weeks I was absolutely in love with the idea of owning it because it spared me some pain.

This Tiguan was the first car I owned since high school that had an automatic transmission. I thought I'd never own an auto ever but alas, the world changes and eventually that's all I'll have to choose from. But during the time the Tiguan was around, I came to the conclusion that it wasn't too bad an idea.

Random_Vibration said:

I find your comment rather comical because I am a Mechanical Engineer who used to design automotive electro-mechanical components before moving on to designing tactical and strategic weapons components. Please spare me your diatribe about ability because I don't think you come from a position to judge that. I've literally have been under hundreds of cars and trucks and had to turn wrenches in support of part development. I enjoyed working on development parts and vehicles. I don't enjoy working on my own cars. I only do it when I feel that I can't rely on a technican to do it to my satisfaction. Knowing how to do a job doesn't translate to wanting to do a job. A good skilled tech will bang out a job faster and better than I most of the time.

Mechanical aptitude does not make the cost of DSG fluid any cheaper. It still is an added maintenance cost and I don't consider my time as free. Yours may be and I'll let you fill in the blanks.

I was not justifying my preference but stating them. I was clearly stating that I didn't choose either or but both. A justification is an argument to suggest one choice is superior than the other. I made no such statement. I clearly said buy what you wish. What part of that didn't you get? You seem to make logical leaps to justify your ends.

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The "diatribe about personal ability" was not a personal attack on you. I'm sorry you took it so personally. I was merely pointing out that, with a little mechanical aptitude and effort, much of the cost of the DSG service can be offset. Thanks for the resume, though, I'll keep it on file.

My time spent performing a service is not free, nor is my time spent dropping off the car at the dealer and returning to pick it up. Except for the labor cost in the latter for the service, my time spent is pretty much a wash. (agreed, the tech performs the service faster and better most of the time in my case, as well)

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon
Parts for filter and fluid changes run about $100. Gear oil for the 6-speed is $30 a liter. If you changed the manual fluid twice in 200K miles (a common recommended change interval, even though it's supposed to be a lifetime fill), you'd spend $180. In the same 200K miles you'd do 5 DSG fluid changes for $500. So the premium is $320.

What I don't get is why you're "stating" (semantics... I concede) your preference for a manual in this thread. Had your post been in the thread Why You Should Not Buy A Dsg Transmission, you wouldn't have heard a peep out of me.

Random_Vibration said:

The Audi A3 will be my 'broken foot' car. It's something to have if I break a foot or if I know I have long day of stop and go traffic ahead.

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Reading this reminds me of the few times I've gotten in a vehicle with an automatic after driving another with a manual and nearly broke my leg slamming my left foot to the floorboard trying to disengage the clutch that wasn't there.
I suppose that equates to a good reason my car is a DSG... I don't break my leg slamming my foot on the floorboard when I drive my wife's DSG.

akjdouglass said:

Had your post been in the thread Why You Should Not Buy A Dsg Transmission, you wouldn't have heard a peep out of me.

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My thoughts too, plus, Random_Vibration, you are not the only mechanical engineer here who has automotive and robotics design experience, and resists turning wrenches when it can be better done by others. For me, shifting gears falls into that latter category as well.