Windchill, does it effect the gelling of fuel?

Is the gel point of fuel effected by temperature alone, or does windchill have an effect? Also does windchill effect the temperature of the motor upon start-up?
Thanks for the answers!
Jason

Yes and no.

Wind chill will cool the fuel down to the ambient temperature faster, but it will not be colder than the air temperature.

Remember wind chill is how cold it feels, it only effects things that feel, like people and pets.

If the temp outside was 25F. with a wind chill of -50F the fuel will still be 25F.

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Lube-Direct

New Lube Forums

Windchill is only how it feels to the human skin due to the evaporation of moisture through the skin pores. Diesel fuel should have no moisture and is not affected, ie the fuel is whatever the temperature is and no lower than that. Windchill only applies to living organisms composed primarily of water.

Windchill measures rate of cooling. An object will cool down to the ambient air temperature faster if there is more wind to remove heat. Example: if it's 10F outside and the windchill is -20F that means any object with a temp greater than 10F placed outside will cool to 10F at the same rate it would if the air temp was -20F. Windchill was adopted for Human Climatology, but a lot of people think it's -30 outside because the windchill is-30. Ain't true, you can't get colder than the air temperature.

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couple of Rabbits, a Golf and a Passat TDI

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyPup:
Windchill only applies to living organisms composed primarily of water.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong!!! Rabbit GTI hit the nail on the head. Also, that is the principle behind convection ovens, that cook in a fraction of the time, except instead of windchill, you have "windheat". I'd hardly consider an apple pie a living organism!!!



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Ric Woodruff

I'm not cheap... I just
know a good bargain
when I see one!


1998 Jetta TDI Custom Sport

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ric Woodruff:
Wrong!!! Rabbit GTI hit the nail on the head. Also, that is the principle behind convection ovens, that cook in a fraction of the time, except instead of windchill, you have "windheat". I'd hardly consider an apple pie a living organism!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hehehe, dumb dumb dumb. Ricster, have you ever used a wet and a dry bulb thermometer?

Windchill is strictly a sensation that is delieverd to a central nervous system based on the loss of heat through the exoskeleton of a living organism. When was the last time your apple pie had any brains in it? lol Thanks for the great laugh!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyPup:
Ricster, have you ever used a wet and a dry bulb thermometer?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I have, extensively.

Anything will cool down much faster with a wind chill. So a car fully warmed up, will cool down much faster in windy conditions than a very calm wind. It could mean the difference between a car starting and not starting, if left out in the cold for X amount of time.

I have worked extensively with thermal cycling and thermal shock chambers. The way thermal shock chambers work, is have high velocity air flow inside the chamber, for rapid temperature transition

SkyPup: You are out of your league.

[This message has been edited by Ric Woodruff (edited November 21, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ric Woodruff:
Yes I have, extensively.

Anything will cool down much faster with a wind chill. So a car fully warmed up, will cool down much faster in windy conditions than a very calm wind. It could mean the difference between a car starting and not starting, if left out in the cold for X amount of time.

I have worked extensively with thermal cycling and thermal shock chambers. The way thermal shock chambers work, is have high velocity air flow inside the chamber, for rapid temperature transition

SkyPup: You are out of your league.

[This message has been edited by Ric Woodruff (edited November 21, 2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ah hahahaaaa!

So with the ambient temp at 40*F and the wind at 40 miles per hour and the windchill at 10*F, I should be able to watch the water freeze? hahahaha, that will be a lllloooonnnnggg wait!

NO WAY. Why doesn't my thermeter detect wind chill then???? Things may cool off faster in wind, but they will never get colder than the actual temperature as read by a thermometer. If the reverse were correct, then I could get water to freeze at 40 degrees F, right? WRONG.

Rics water freezes at 50*F when the wind speed is also 50 mph, due to lowering of the windchill to 0*F. It is based on a phenomenon which is described by specialized mathematical theorem called the "WoodRuff Equation?"

50*F - 50 mph = 0*F

Why doesn't that Woodruff equation seem logical?


Ric, in outer space, where there is no wind chill, the Space Shuttle is moving at 18,000 mph though a vacuum with a temperature of -180*F,

PLEASE RIC -> tell us what the WINDCHILL factor is on the space craft and astrounauts, it must be below ABSOLUTE ZERO based on your faulty hypothesis!!! lol

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cummins Guy:
Things may cool off faster in wind, but they will never get colder than the actual temperature as read by a thermometer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Duh! Nobody EVER claimed that to be true!

The bottom line is:

a) when temperatures are in a dynamic state, wind chill DOES have a significant affect.

b) when temperatures are in a static state, windchill has NO effect.

'nuff said.

[This message has been edited by Ric Woodruff (edited November 21, 2000).]

Original windchill was an attempt to estimate the convective heatloss from a square meter of an objects surface as windspeed increased using basic fluid dynamics that apply to any object placed in the airstream. The original formula included only windspeed and air temperature. The calculated result was an estimate of the cooling power of the atmosphere. Respiration and radiative loss/gain were not included until the idea was applied to human comfort. The equations were then tweaked to include a thin layer of clothing, activity level of the subject, etc... those estimations get complex and obviously don't apply to a car. The only point I was trying to make is that "windchill" does impact the TDI because it will cool down to the airtemp faster if parked in the wind, but the TDI and it's fuel will NOT get colder than the airtemp. I guess that's kinda obvious because it's just like blowing on a spoonful of hot soup so you won't poach your lips eating it. The soup cools a lot faster, but no matter how long you blow the soup temp won't get lower than the temperature of the room.

So Ric, with the Space Shuttle moving at 18,000 mph in orbit though outside temp of -180*F, how much heat energy (BTUs) does NASA have to burn to keep the Space Shuttle from becoming a gigantic orbiting ICEBERG due to the SEVERE WINDCHILL? ahahahahhaaaa, lol lol

What effect does the friction of the air molecules on the object have when calculating windchill factor? Is there an equation to calculate this based on the altitude and barometric density of the air? At what temp does the air chill get canceled out by the heat caused from the friction.

Ric, you are our resident rocket scientist, tell us the answers to these perplexing physical quesitons about our universe!

I am no expert by any means, but it seems to me that temperature is a phenomenon of physics while wind chill requires a perceiver. Fuel does not perceive (unless diesel has a central nervous system) so wind chill should have no effect.

What a long strange neurophysiological trip it's been,
Gary

If anybody really cares about this subject, Micrometeorology by Sutton is a great book. Boundary layer climates are one of the most complicated areas of fluid dynamics because phase changes of water and three-dimensional turbulence are involved. Really, really neat stuff.

Ric,

You understand the basic concept, but you do not understand the protocols in which the definitions of the concept are being used. Which is a nice way for me to say YOU are out of your league, again... Not Skypup, not RabbitGTI, not msparks, not Cummins Guy etc. They all understand "how" they are using the definition of windchill.

Skypup & RabbitGTI are both right. Skypups definition for windchill is correct for his specialty, and so is RabbitGTI's. Every science will have slightly different definitions for the same terms.

Only something alive "feels" windchill in its current definition. Everything else simply cools off at a faster rate.

Brian, 97 Passat TDI

Wow, this is interesting, I think Ric may be on to something significant here folks.

Fact, small rain drops come down out of the sky as water, however bigger raindrops come down as hail. This proves Rics theories about windchill and also the fact that the force of gravity is not equal either, the larger the drop the faster it will fall. Take a rain drop falling at 32 feet per second, now look at a chunk of hail twice as big and it is falling at 64 feet per second. This is all do to the windchill effect on water changing the ionic structure from one state to the next and also modifying the gravational forces by up to 100%.

Ric, send me about 10 hairs so I can extract some of your DNA when I am teaching the FBI Academy and the State Attorneys Office molecular genetic forensic analysis next week. I'll isolate your DNA (don't worry, I won't send any to your health or life insurance companies) and see how closely you are related to Issac Newton, Paul Dirac, and Albert Einstein. I'll also get a sample from Elsie the cow as a control too. lol That way I can MILK IT FOR ALL YOUR GENES ARE WORTH!!! LOL hehehehehehe

Not to reignite the flames, but it is possible for an object to cool below the ambient temperature. This is seen most commonly in a cooling tower. The effect of water evaporating into the dry air can result in a final water temperature lower than the incoming water temp or the ambient air. This would apply to a wet object until all the water evaporates.

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Tom
'96 Passat TDI
'95 MB S320

That is why wind chill is a subjective sensation on the nervous system from the water evaporated from the pores through the skin. This will continue to occur even after you are dead and your body temperature becomes ambient, resulting in a nice dehydrated mummification process.

Ric, here is the protocol for the RT-PCR reactions:

http://www.lifetech.com/Content/Tech-Online/molecular_biology/manuals_pps/11731015.pdf

Wind Chill

Your warm TDI engine will cool faster in high winds, but won't get colder than the surrounding air.

Your body will be affected by wind chill, until your body is the same temp as the surrounding air. At which point additional heat is sucked out of the flesh as the drying process takes over. The conversion of H2O from the Liquid to the Gaseous state requires energy.

A red hot HorseShoe in front of a fan will cool faster than one in still air. Wind chill works on objects that don't contain water also.




[This message has been edited by DZLKopf (edited November 21, 2000).]

I find it very ironic that people who are posting from Florida claim to know anything about windchill. You guys have to deal with bugs and heatrash all year.

Its only us northern slobs that have to worry about burst pipes, slow drains, and watching our spit explode in the "brisk" morning air. When my nose and earlobes are getting frostbitten I don't worry too much about how the car is feeling. There is a simple answer to this dilemma. Don't go outside when its that damn cold! The schools cancell for the day here if they think the kids will freeze waiting for the bus! Common sense is a powerful weapon! Use it!

Not Flaming just trying to remember what the sun looks like! Have a nice Thanksgiving, and thank God you don't live in Buffalo, NY!

I have a related story,

For some reason, my mother-in-law(who is from florida) Becomes so cold when it snows she nearly freezes to death. She will not go out side for nothing.

Now it could be 20F. Outside and no snow and **** she will nearly have shorts on. But if its 32F. and snowing look out.

Skypup,

Maybe you better get some of her gene material and compare it to Ric's who knows they could be hatched from the same goose egg!

Also you know I find it funny that I can ride my motorcycle in 26F. weather and it doestn' matter how fast I go 25mph or 80mph I still get cold just as fast. Rode 100 miles today and it was in the low 30's outside.

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Lube-Direct

New Lube Forums

[This message has been edited by msparks (edited November 21, 2000).]

Just to set the record straight on fuel gelling.

It only takes less than 2% of the fuel to gel to clog the fuel filter out. The paraffinic wax molecules in diesel middle distillates turns into long dendritic solid particles and jams the fuel filter material up enough to clog the flow. The entire tank of fuel is not jelled, only a tiny portion is needed to screw things up good. The solubility of the paraffinic waxes is temperature dependent and can be modified using antigel additives. The additives don't prevent the actual dendritic wax molecular formations, however they change the shape of the molecules that are formed so that they flow through the fuel filter without clogging it up.

you guys are Insane, skypupil? attack the performance not the performer. ? If I was traveling 117,000 mps and had no mass (besides my brain )what would the wind chill be? and at what time?

Wrong again, Ric. "Wind chill" refers to how cold the air FEELS due to the evaporation of moisture from the skin and the fact that wind blows the layer of warm air away from your skin. But if the temperature is 30 degrees it'll always be 30 degrees regardless of how hard the wind is blowing. An inanimate object cannot "feel cold." If the air is moving past the object it'll hasten the process of equalizing the object's temperature with its surroundings, but the object's temperature will never drop below that ambient temperature.

-mickey

Back to the real world now,
Do the following test:
Park your car wit his(her) nose int the wind, let's stand there for all night.
Next day do the same but park the car in the opposite direction.
Let me know how it feels to start the car.