Lubing of wheel bolts?

scurvy

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Got my replacement bolts from my FLVWPC, part number 8D0601139D for $3.78 each. According to my calipers & thread gauges they're M14x1.5 with a fully threaded length of 27.25mm & OAL of 48mm. Interesting that they're fine thread and not coarse as I expected (would be M14x2).

So... assuming a grade 10.9 bolt in a medium carbon steel, the dry torque values I'm finding are all in/around the 120 Nm range.

Leicaman has volunteered to make a video of this experiment. I'm pretty interested to see the results of this myself.

scurvy
 

lupin..the..3rd

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BioDiesel said:
Torque is a poor way to produce a specific bolt stretch.
A friend told me one manuf. recommends you to tighten the nut, then
turn a certain number of turns, 1/4 turn, 3/4 turn , etc. to produce
the desired bolt stretch. Knowing the pitch of the threads, you can determine the stretch. This method would be independent of torque, which is too variable.
Makes a lot of sense, which is why Mercedes uses this method for cyl head bolts on their diesel engines:

1. 15 NM
2. 35 NM
3. 90 degrees
4. wait 10 minutes
5. 90 degrees
 

Tisey06

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Has anyone Used Fluid film rust corrosion prevention for the lugs? http://www.eurekafluidfilm.com/ this stuff is really great probably better than antiseize on the lugs,,and will also prevent rust and will stay a lot longer on the lugs, it is liquid like WD40 but much much better.
 

xs650

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scurvy said:
Got my replacement bolts from my FLVWPC, part number 8D0601139D for $3.78 each. According to my calipers & thread gauges they're M14x1.5 with a fully threaded length of 27.25mm & OAL of 48mm. Interesting that they're fine thread and not coarse as I expected (would be M14x2).

So... assuming a grade 10.9 bolt in a medium carbon steel, the dry torque values I'm finding are all in/around the 120 Nm range.

Leicaman has volunteered to make a video of this experiment. I'm pretty interested to see the results of this myself.

scurvy
A 10.9 bolt is a good grade of alloy steel. I see torque ratings around 175 Nm for clean dry threads on a 10.9 M14x1.5.

For the metrically challenged, a metric 10.9 is about the same as an SAE Grade 8.
 
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POWERSTROKE

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ymz said:
And to what value do you torque them ??

Yuri.
88-89 ft/lb No, it is probably not the exact correct torque when putting the bolts on with anti-seize, but what are you saying? I have been doing this forever without a singular problem. If you are making the argument that the torque value is not exact when you put anti-seize on the bolts, then you are probably correct. But in my opinion, it does not cause any harmful side effects. Like I said, I do this every tire rotation without incidence. There is no perceptible problem. Furthermore, I am not sure why this is such a huge discussion.
 

POWERSTROKE

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Also, I would like to add that my putting anti-seize on bolts to prevent seizing is much better to do with a torque wrench than some fool at the dealer cranking them on with an impact wrench. It is the same thing with a bicycle. There are torque values for every nut and bolt on a bicycle especially with a carbon frame, but many suggest that a dab of grease should be put on all the bolts. I guess to each his own. All of this discussion is at most anecdotal.
 

xs650

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POWERSTROKE said:
There is nothing to test. I have been putting anti-seize on the lugs for 90k. It's fine.
Sure there is. The test will show us how close to disaster we are running by using anti-seize and torquing to full, or in my case, close to full standard torque. Using anti-seize or grease on a fastener can increase the tensile load on the fastener at a given torque by 30%.

What is saving you, and to a lesser extent me from failed parts, is that automotive engineers put alot of reserve strength into certain parts of a car. It's their realization that cars get maintained by chimpanzees that keeps the lug bolts from failing whem they are lubed.
 
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MCR

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xs650 said:
What is saving you, and to a lesser extent me from failed parts, is that automotive engineers put a lot of reserve strength into certain parts of a car.
No complaint there.

xs650 said:
It's their realization that cars get maintained by chimpanzees that keeps the lug bolts from failing when they are lubed.
I have philosophical problems with this statement. Certainly, everyone realizes that cars are maintained by chimpanzees. We've beat the dead horse here that the single biggest problem with lubing is the risk of someone using an impact wrench after we've taken the time to lube.

My anecdote is with my Ford. After I lubed the threads, I went years were I could tighten *and* loosen the lug nuts with a 4-way. I gave the car to an in-law to do struts, and when I tried to take off a wheel, I needed 6 feet of cheater bar.

There are at least two major advantages to lubing.

The first is for corrosion. It's scary how violently an impact wrench takes off these things when they're rusted. Pulling all that rust through the threads just can't be good for them.

The second major advantage to lubing is that it reduces the scatter of the preload. A rusty, unlubed joint can load up the torque wrench before reaching adequate preload. The lubed threads are more likely to give you the expected preload than the unlubed joint.

I don't see how these mythical automotive engineers can expect the joint to be dry and safe. Dry means corrosion, corrosion means deterioration and loss of strength. Dry also means there is an expectation of wirebrushing the threads before reassembly. I'm having trouble understanding how there can be an assumption of all-out neglect by the engineers---no lube, no wirebrushing, rampant overtorquing. At some level, they're relying on attentive people spending a little time to get the job done right. (And hopefully on the expectation that one or more bolts can be missing or broken and the car feels funny before a catastrophic loss-of-wheel.

Which reminds me of a story. Maybe 22 years ago---77 Ford Thunderbird, about 300 miles after a tire rotation done by a tire shop. I was driving home from college. I was completely oblivious to car problems, and as I rounded a bend on a 2-lane highway, all of the sudden the car felt weird. 1/4 mile ahead, a brand new little box store, new to the route. I pulled into the parking lot and looked the car over. Tires had air. Everything looked good. Slow circle to the left---nothing. Slow circle to the right---hmmm--clicking sounds. Walk around the car. Again. Hmmm. And then this shocking revelation, "OH MY GOD THAT THERE IS ONE LUG NUT HOLDING THAT WHEEL ON!" Four were missing. I'm thinking, "Where am I ever going to find lugs nuts here in the middle of nowhere?" I took a look at the store. I'd never heard of the place---"Wal-Mart". Oh man---I don't like the sound of that. Looks dodgy. It was way smaller than the ones today. I found the automotive section, and started looking around. There was a carded thing of 5 lug nuts for like $1.36. I took them outside and they fit the studs, but my spare tire wrench wouldn't fit the hex. So...back into Wal-Mart for a $4 chrome four-way that I had for 14 years or so, until someone grabbed it when I wasn't looking and I had to replace it for $8.

The fact that VW bolts have stretched because of lube is pretty shocking to me. I can only assume they were lubed and then overtorqued, hopefully with an air impact wrench. I'm looking forward to scurvy's torque test, but I would put up a few bucks to spring for straight up new bolts (or maybe a combination of new and old bolts), rather than just the locking style, just for the benefit of not having to answer the question, "Are the locking head bolts representative of the regular bolts?"

A really good basic book for threaded fasteners is "What Every Engineer Should Know about Threaded Fasteners: Materials and Design" by Alexander Blake. I've read it twice when some stuff at work came up. Anyone with serious design issues is going to need more depth, but...it's a quick read, and it's an awesome introduction to the topic.

The book:
http://books.google.com/books?id=TA...zG4zGyAT0mZxs&sig=LZh_3Nak4RfvXSTw5ptv9WaDqHE

The chapter about torque K's with various lubes:
"Formulas for Torque and Preload"
http://books.google.com/books?id=TA...ded+fasteners&sig=N1rPJL_aRCa-f4dfCC06rc6xPsU

(I think Google Books only gives you a limited number of page views, so don't go clicking all over the place.)
 
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scurvy

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MCR said:
... I would put up a few bucks to spring for straight up new bolts (or maybe a combination of new and old bolts), rather than just the locking style, just for the benefit of not having to answer the question, "Are the locking head bolts representative of the regular bolts?"
AFAIK, the locking bolts are simply regular bolts with an internally splined socket head.

If somebody else wants to spring for all new bolts, I would be ecstatic to have that cost subsidized. Feel free to send me funds via paypal or google checkout to chicagoted at that google mail service. Donations to the brewing fund are always greatly appreciated, too. ;)

New bolts are about $4/ea with tax.
 

POWERSTROKE

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xs650 said:
Sure there is. The test will show us how close to disaster we are running by using anti-seize and torquing to full, or in my case, close to full standard torque. Using anti-seize or grease on a fastener can increase the tensile load on the fastener at a given torque by 30%.

What is saving you, and to a lesser extent me from failed parts, is that automotive engineers put alot of reserve strength into certain parts of a car. It's their realization that cars get maintained by chimpanzees that keeps the lug bolts from failing whem they are lubed.
I am not disagreeing that it changes the tensile load on the fastener. What I am disagreeing with is that if I put anti-seize on a lug nut and torque it to 88 ft/lbs, there is no way that it is a higher load than what 95% of these cars see when they go to a dealer or tire shop. The lugs come out in a normal fashion when I rotate my tires. What is saving me? Nothing, just the same for you if you withold putting anti-seize on the lug nuts as you have stated. So basically it serves a purpose to lube if the error is built into what the engineers had engineered. At the very least, when you are caught on the side of the road on a wintery night, your lugs will come out easy and not shear off.
You also have proven that there is nothing to test as well, it has been tested and error of torque values have been built into the design.
 

scurvy

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well, that was quick

Thanks for stepping up to the plate, MCR. I will now have enough bolts (my 4 "security" bolts w/46k on 'em plus this one new) to do the entire wheel at once.

I even pulled out the gauge blocks at work and found my vernier calipers are off by about 0.02mm - I think that's good enough for gummint work. Now just gotta sit back and wait for the GTG in a month.
 

MCR

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Does anyone here have strong feelings about preparing cars for the women in your life so that they can change flat tires?

A couple of days ago my niece was stressing about knowing how to change a flat tire, and it got me thinking about what I might do to make sure she's not stuck somewhere with a tire she can't change. It reinforced for me the idea of lubing the wheel threads, but making sure she knows to make sure mechanics torque the wheels correctly.

Usually the first cheater bar I reach for is a 1" or 1.25" PVC pipe --- schedule 40. It bends, but it usually works. I was thinking a 2 or 3 foot section of that might be appropriate for a car. It's light and not too prone to rattling. I'd have to try it out first, though. Might shatter on a really cold day...
 
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dhdenney

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Then you'd have to be worried about whether or not she knows how to use the pipe.
 

scurvy

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I would much rather have the woman in my life have a 6 point socket and a 1/2" drive breaker bar than the OEM tool and a "cheater bar" any day of the week. $10 at harbor fart / yard sale / pawn shop and much, much safer.
 

Variant TDI

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MCR said:
Does anyone here have strong feelings about preparing cars for the women in your life so that they can change flat tires?
Yes. My wife has an electric torque wrench that I've tested on her lugs.

She also has AAA, travels primarily in good areas, and is never more than 25 miles from me.
 

10then34

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Variant TDI said:
Yes. My wife has an electric torque wrench that I've tested on her lugs.
Yeah, I wondered whether something like that can be found. Do you mind sharing where you got it from ?

I assume it runs on an accessory outlet. Now all I need is an electric jack ;)
 

ymz

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scurvy said:
I would much rather have the woman in my life have a 6 point socket and a 1/2" drive breaker bar than the OEM tool and a "cheater bar" any day of the week. $10 at harbor fart / yard sale / pawn shop and much, much safer.
I've run up against an occasional lug bolt that even with the 24" breaker bar I had trouble removing... cheater pipe is nice to have (thank you, Ted for giving me yours...)

For the gentler folks in my life, I picked up several of the cheapo Harbor Freight electric impact guns when they had one of their give-away sales... they plug into the cigarette lighter socket and the motor spins a weight that eventually clunks into the 1/2" drive mechanism... it actually works better than some of the lesser-quality air-powered impact wrenches...

(Of course, we also have CAA / AAA...)

Yuri.
 

xs650

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POWERSTROKE said:
I am not disagreeing that it changes the tensile load on the fastener. What I am disagreeing with is that if I put anti-seize on a lug nut and torque it to 88 ft/lbs, there is no way that it is a higher load than what 95% of these cars see when they go to a dealer or tire shop. The lugs come out in a normal fashion when I rotate my tires. What is saving me? Nothing, just the same for you if you withold putting anti-seize on the lug nuts as you have stated. So basically it serves a purpose to lube if the error is built into what the engineers had engineered. At the very least, when you are caught on the side of the road on a wintery night, your lugs will come out easy and not shear off.
You also have proven that there is nothing to test as well, it has been tested and error of torque values have been built into the design.
Well then, feel free to skip the rest of this thread.
 

POWERSTROKE

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POWERSTROKE said:
I am not disagreeing that it changes the tensile load on the fastener. What I am disagreeing with is that if I put anti-seize on a lug nut and torque it to 88 ft/lbs, there is no way that it is a higher load than what 95% of these cars see when they go to a dealer or tire shop. The lugs come out in a normal fashion when I rotate my tires. What is saving me? Nothing, just the same for you if you withold putting anti-seize on the lug nuts as you have stated. So basically it serves a purpose to lube if the error is built into what the engineers had engineered. At the very least, when you are caught on the side of the road on a wintery night, your lugs will come out easy and not shear off.
You also have proven that there is nothing to test as well, it has been tested and error of torque values have been built into the design.

xs650 said:
Well then, feel free to skip the rest of this thread.
I didn't realize Fred Voglmaier sold the site to you. I will refrain from posting in the thread now.
 

Powder Hound

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Nah - he's just responding to the excitement of the moment of finding information about a subject that concerns him.

ttloadcells - you will never find a definitive answer. Too many factors that are not under control, and there are just as many stubborn opinionated people on one side of the argument as the other. Just think about what you can find, and decide which way you want to go. Pay attention to the results of your actions, and adjust accordingly. That's about all you can do.

Cheers,

PH
 
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